"SIC" vs second pilot 135?
11-05-2017, 06:37 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
A co-worker of mine views this as a possible smoke screen on the 'client' which is the one **thinking** there are two fully qualified pilots up front as they have requested when very possibly the person sitting in that seat can't do a single thing that a truly qualified crew member could do 'legally' of course.
11-05-2017, 08:18 PM
#12
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
It was a common modus operandi for a now defunct 135 at my home Airport.
Get the willing and bright eyed to sit right seat whenever the pax requested two pilots.
I’ve always turned it down despite being a desperate flight instructor in those days.
You wear the uniform or occupy the seat or otherwise pretend you’d better know what you’re doing.
So ace of the base over to your left rolls the airplane into a ball and people got hurt. How do you explain yourself?
Get the willing and bright eyed to sit right seat whenever the pax requested two pilots.
I’ve always turned it down despite being a desperate flight instructor in those days.
You wear the uniform or occupy the seat or otherwise pretend you’d better know what you’re doing.
So ace of the base over to your left rolls the airplane into a ball and people got hurt. How do you explain yourself?
11-06-2017, 06:09 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 45
Maybe the following should be some of the ethical litmus test questions?:
If the PIC became completely incapacitated and, a non-type rated, "qualified" crew member had to fly the airplane from the right seat, would the result be guaranteed a safe and uneventful landing?
Do the passengers PAYING for a safe 135 flight and assuming they have two FULLY qualified pilots deserve to be misled?
--
Questions on both sides and lots of justifications from those desperate to time build will always make this a hot-button subject.
Things that make you say: HMMMM.
If the PIC became completely incapacitated and, a non-type rated, "qualified" crew member had to fly the airplane from the right seat, would the result be guaranteed a safe and uneventful landing?
Do the passengers PAYING for a safe 135 flight and assuming they have two FULLY qualified pilots deserve to be misled?
--
Questions on both sides and lots of justifications from those desperate to time build will always make this a hot-button subject.
Things that make you say: HMMMM.
11-06-2017, 06:49 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by BlueJacketGuy
I’m pretty sure that a SIC doesn’t need the type outside of 121 ops.
TiredSoul and yeagermeister hit the nail on the head with one of the biggest problems on this reg and P135 operators.
It can be a win/win situation for everyone - except the 'clients' who are being misled.
11-07-2017, 06:43 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
A co-worker of mine views this as a possible smoke screen on the 'client' which is the one **thinking** there are two fully qualified pilots up front as they have requested when very possibly the person sitting in that seat can't do a single thing that a truly qualified crew member could do 'legally' of course.
This is one of the standard practices of the classic shady type of 135 operator that needs to be speed of the face of the world.
11-07-2017, 08:36 AM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Turning money into noise.
Posts: 40
The most concise and easy to digest answer I've ever heard:
If the FO called out sick an hour before departure, could the flight still depart as planned with just the PIC and be legal under that part? If yes, the FO isn't a legally required crewmember. If no, they are.
Insurance requirements, owner requirements, company procedures are irrelevant to this. For logging time, the FAA only cares whether you're a legally required crew member under the Part which the flight is operating.
If the FO called out sick an hour before departure, could the flight still depart as planned with just the PIC and be legal under that part? If yes, the FO isn't a legally required crewmember. If no, they are.
Insurance requirements, owner requirements, company procedures are irrelevant to this. For logging time, the FAA only cares whether you're a legally required crew member under the Part which the flight is operating.
11-07-2017, 04:42 PM
#19
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 18
Thanks for the discussion.
Basically just trying to figure out whether we can afford another pilot or not. SIC type is easy enough to get someone for Part 91 flights, (a few landings and a check ride,) but for Part 135, the issue we're running into is that SIC training in the training manual is exactly the same as PIC training, or very expensive. So trying to figure out what the minimum FAA requirements would be for a part-time contract pilot training-wise to act as SIC on 135 flights to meet insurance, client, and safety rating 2-pilot requirements.
Basically just trying to figure out whether we can afford another pilot or not. SIC type is easy enough to get someone for Part 91 flights, (a few landings and a check ride,) but for Part 135, the issue we're running into is that SIC training in the training manual is exactly the same as PIC training, or very expensive. So trying to figure out what the minimum FAA requirements would be for a part-time contract pilot training-wise to act as SIC on 135 flights to meet insurance, client, and safety rating 2-pilot requirements.
11-08-2017, 03:21 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by vessbot
Possible? It's absolutely a smokescreen. I want to see the reaction of the client if they're told that the so-called crewmember they requested is sitting in the seat under the auspices of being a passenger, and is not allowed to touch anything.
This is one of the standard practices of the classic shady type of 135 operator that needs to be speed of the face of the world.
This is one of the standard practices of the classic shady type of 135 operator that needs to be speed of the face of the world.
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