Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Part 135
135 Op SIC Logging in Piaggio Avanti >

135 Op SIC Logging in Piaggio Avanti

Notices
Part 135 Part 135 commercial operators

135 Op SIC Logging in Piaggio Avanti

Old 07-20-2018, 11:29 AM
  #31  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 37
Default

Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
As one of those "few others," I don't interpret regulation. Ever.

I do provide the regulation as interpreted by the Adminstrator, as given in the CFR itself, the Federal Register preambles, and the Chief and Assistant Legal Counsel legal interpretations.

That's what you've received.
I agree with your previous posts. I use the same references as you do. There is an MEL for PC12 IFR flight if followed doesn’t require an SIC to prove your point .

Originally Posted by ForthFlyer
Are you saying that all right seat pilots at the 135 Caravan and PC-12 operators out there can only log total time, not SIC time, when the autopilot is on?



This sounds a bit absurd to me. But I suppose what difference does it make, SIC time vs. just total time. Most folks at those operations are just there to build up to 1200/1500 hours of total time and move on.
The "SIC" is not required, and may not log the time at all.

What is absurd is the notion of logging total time without it being PIC, SIC, or instruction received. Because in a single-pilot aircraft, the SIC is not required when the autopilot is in use (under a certificate holder authorized autopilot in lieu of a SIC), the "SIC" is not entitled to log the time at all.
PT6LOL is offline  
Old 07-21-2018, 04:51 PM
  #32  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Default

Already addressed.

There is no such thing, with regard to 14 CFR 61.51, as logging time without a classification as PIC, SIC, or instruction received.

There is no regulatory basis for logging total time if one isn't the PIC or SIC, or receiving instruction from an authorized instructor. If one isn't qualified to log pilot time, then there's no "total time" with which to pad one's book.
JohnBurke is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:27 AM
  #33  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
Already addressed.

There is no such thing, with regard to 14 CFR 61.51, as logging time without a classification as PIC, SIC, or instruction received.

There is no regulatory basis for logging total time if one isn't the PIC or SIC, or receiving instruction from an authorized instructor. If one isn't qualified to log pilot time, then there's no "total time" with which to pad one's book.

With the new reg, it appears the FAA is simply allowing the “SIC” column to be filled as opposed to “instruction received.”

“10 LOGBOOK ENDORSEMENT FOR EACH FLIGHT. In accordance with § 61.159(c)(3), to log SIC flight time while serving as an SIC of an operation conducted in accordance with § 135.99(c), the PIC must certify in the assigned SIC’s logbook that the flight time was conducted in accordance with § 61.159(c). The FAA recommends the following endorsement to certify each flight:”
deadstick35 is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 06:07 AM
  #34  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Default

61.159(c) is not instruction received. Instruction received is irrelevant.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1159&rgn=div8

§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...=20180627y1.67
JohnBurke is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 07:01 AM
  #35  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
61.159(c) is not instruction received. Instruction received is irrelevant.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1159&rgn=div8



https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...=20180627y1.67

My point was that each flight will be signed off as SIC time much like one gets for instruction received. I just remember 10-some-odd years ago when many 121 PICs were essentially doing dual with newbie SICs. “Wow I just logged my first actual time.”


Your second link was the one you needed. The reference in my post was for the NEW 61.159(c)(3).

(c) A commercial pilot may log second-in-command pilot time toward the aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section and the aeronautical experience requirements in §61.160, provided the pilot is employed by a part 119 certificate holder authorized to conduct operations under part 135 of this chapter and the second-in-command pilot time is obtained in operations conducted for the certificate holder under part 91 or 135 of this chapter when a second pilot is not required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted, and the following requirements are met—

(1) The experience must be accomplished as part of a second-in-command professional development program approved by the Administrator under §135.99 of this chapter;

(2) The flight operation must be conducted in accordance with the certificate holder's operations specification for the second-in-command professional development program;

(3) The pilot in command of the operation must certify in the pilot's logbook that the second-in-command pilot time was accomplished under this section; and
deadstick35 is offline  
Old 07-22-2018, 07:43 AM
  #36  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Default

Originally Posted by deadstick35 View Post
Your second link was the one you needed. The reference in my post was for the NEW 61.159(c)(3).
Both links were needed. I linked for you the current regulation, which is to say, the absolute most current publication possible, through the electronic code of federal regulations, and quoted it.

I also linked the federal register preamble. Both are applicable. The "new" 61.159(c) is what I quoted, because it is what is currently in effect. Additional changes upon future dates are cited as they are phased in, by stages, in the Federal Register.

Until implemented, the ONLY regulation which is directly applicable is that currently in use, and that's what I gave you.

I provided exactly what I needed in my reply, and precisely what you or anyone else reading about the subject needs to know.

The logging of instruction here is irrelevant.
JohnBurke is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
skypimp92
Aviation Law
40
04-28-2014 04:39 AM
determined2fly
Part 135
10
10-19-2012 04:35 PM
CHayes1126
Corporate
28
02-04-2009 03:42 AM
Pilot41
Hangar Talk
1
08-10-2007 05:20 AM
Tie Pilot
Fractional
5
06-16-2006 01:18 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices