CFI or Mokulele
 

Hi,
If I have about a year to time build to my minimums,
would spending 4 months for CFI and not being able to start time building after, or started flying part 135 once I am commercial rated?

Flying commercial might be appealing in a way where I dont have to spend another 10k and 4 months for CFI training, but looking at a bigger pictures flying part 135 might not get as many hours as being a CFI.

SIC is not required on the C-208. Pay for SIC will be rather low, and not meet the cost of living in the PHNL area. That said, you be living in the minus. Bottom line, you’ll take a hiatus in building quality time. Its tantamount to those who think being an International Relief Officer (IRO) for an airline is quality time. IRO time is deducted from total time.

You should take the view that you are investing money in your career. You’ll realize a return on your investment be it through flight instructing, charter pilot, and eventually as an airline pilot.

You may pay a premium to earn your CFI with American Flyers, ATP, Flight Safety, etc. Search around to determine how much you need to invest in your career. Talk to CFIs at your local airport.

You can do a lot of preparation work on your own. Although the weekend ground school courses for the FoI and CFI written is a good investment.

Good luck.

At Southern Airways and Mokulele, they both require first officers per their FAR 135 Operations Specs. All logged time as SIC counts towards your total time and in most cases Cross Country time. So all your time logged counts towards ATP minimums.

I’m mentoring a few pilots at each carrier. You can log up to 100 hours a month at Southern. Southern just announced they are purchasing Mokulele but will operate both separately.

Southern has bases in Mid Atlantic and the South so much cheaper living expenses then Hawaii. Plus you’ll get 6 to 10 legs a day in a 2 pilot 135 Regional Airline flying in lots of weather and into busy airports. In my opinion best experience you can get and much better then CFI experience.

Southern typically hires FO’s at 300 hours and at 1200 hours (135 mins) upgrades to captain. I think you fly a little less maybe around 80 hours a month at Mokulele. Once they hit 1500 hours they are scooped up by all 121 Regionals flying RJ’s.

So if you could get on at either one of these airlines, I’d say better off then CFI. 80 to 100 hours a month year round is very difficult to average as CFI. Plus your getting 2 pilot airline type experience.

If you can’t get either one of these two airlines or a high time monthly average at a 135 operation that requires a SIC per their ops specs (so you can legally log all flight time) I’d go the CFI route. Or get CFI build some time then go to one of these airlines.

My two cents, good luck!

You're confused here. Their GOM might require two pilots, but GOM is not an approved document. Which "Operations Specs" are you referring to?

For VFR flights, it does not fulfill the meaning of 61.51(f), because the SIC is not required by regulation or type certificate, unless they have the SIC development program in place. For IFR they can log it for passenger carrying legs, as long as the PIC has not completed an 135.297(g) check.

The only way they can legally log SIC time is if they have 139.99(c) program in place. An SIC also cannot log any time legally for flights operated VFR.

But it is FAA accepted. The regs require compliance with a GOM as per 135.21, so if the GOM says an SIC is always required, no flights could depart without an SIC, making them required crew. Same goes for anything in a GOM, violating the GOM is violating 135.21.

Otherwise you’re right, if the GOM doesn’t explicitly state an SIC is to be designated then they’d need a 135.99 SIC PDP, or always fly IFR without A015 or PICs who complete a 135.297(g).

Yeah my point was more that there is no "Operations Specs" that require an SIC. The whole 135.99 SIC PDP, I think, shows that FAA understands that a lot of SIC programs weren't really useful and not loggable the way 61.51 means.

A Caravan SIC in VFR really is stretching the definition of a required crewmember in my opinion.

A post from another Mokulele thread:

Other posters referenced a $7,000 cost to the applicant to receive training to fly a C-208. Can you comment on this?

I am confused now? Some are saying its not legal to log PIc some said it is? What are we looking at now

It's my personal opinion, reading the letter of the reg, that SIC time in a Caravan flying passengers VFR or IFR cargo flying is not legal.

I know of a case where FAA did not accept that time. But most of the time at least in the regional level it goes through no problems.

Mokulele may be availing themselves of the “Part 135 Second in Command Professional Development Program”

Advisory Circular AC No: 135-43

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/.../AC_135-43.pdf

Yes, it is a very recent change though. That made those hours legal after November 28 2018, assuming they had the PDP program in place then.
The old Caravan stuff Mokulele did VFR definitely wasn't loggable in my opinion. And the fact that FAA came up with the PDP, and made it IFR only, sort of confirms it.
Even though I know those hours are widely accepted.

Agreed. If Mokulele is a P2P shop, then the IFR operations issue is answered for logging SIC time is issued.

you are saying Cargo flying? but they are flying commercial carrying passengers, right? island hopping.

so basically the questions here is, whether it is legal to log both PIC if its a VFR operation? I do know, mokulele they do file IFR most of the time, maybe because they are flying commercial so its still required to do iFR?

Who says it doesn’t count as total time?

Many foreign carriers employ(ed) IROs to perform solely as IROs. No takeoffs and no landings nor manipulation of controls. Their takeoffs and landings occur in the sim. On teh aircraft they sit in a seat make position reports, complete paperwork, and eat.

Advisory Circular AC No: 135-43 provides relief for operators to provide underlying training programs which will allow SICs to log time on a C206 on steroids.

Still awaiting a response from a current/former Mokulele SIC as to whether it is/was a P2P operation.

Anyone that works for mokulele can confirm? Looks like it’s legal for FO and the captain on the c208 to both log PIC

I would not encourage a Second in Command to log flight time as PIC especially when the individual is listed as SIC on the release. The intent of AC 135-43 is to allow a Part 135 operation to establish a Second in Command Pilot Development Program which allows SIC to log time towards their total time.

In think Boeing Aviator can provide confirmation as to Mokulele whether they have an established FAA approved SIC PDP. He can probably confirm whether or not Mokulele is or is not a P2P shop.

[QUOTE=captjns;2766995]I would not encourage a Second in Command to log flight time as PIC especially when the individual is listed as SIC on the release. The intent of AC 135-43 is to allow a Part 135 operation to establish a Second in Command Pilot Development Program which allows SIC to log time towards their total time.

In think Boeing Aviator can provide confirmation as to Mokulele whether they have an established FAA approved SIC PDP. He can probably confirm whether or not Mokulele is or is not a P2P shop.[/QUOTE


I dont know if you know this guy Swayne Martin that does youtube videos who flew for Mokulele to time build. He is now at Envoy as a first officer
I am not sure what would be different if you act as a SIC and logging time towards your TT. Wouldnt you log TT in any flight anyways? The PIC time or dual given is my concern, because anyone can log TT easily but the airlines wants to see either PIC or dual given.

[QUOTE=themenace321;2767233]The Flight Release will indicate PIC and SIC, if required. Again, AC 135-43 provides requirements for the SIC PDP program.

Surely, (no pun intended) a mentor pilot for those working for Mokulele could shed light as to the provisions contained in their Ops Specs.

IMO the CFI route is far more valuable than a P2P operation. Its a matter of an investment, which may provide a return, versus an expense which is just that... and expense.

[QUOTE=captjns;2767363] By the new reg the PDP program proves that previous logging was not legal except for some IFR under certain conditions. The new reg tells you any previous SIC logging is not retroactive.. doesn’t count .
Why don’t you people read what it says. It is simple unless 135 operator participate in PDP one can not log SIC period .
Now , it is different subject why regionals has been excepting previous SIC time when they should not have .

Mokulele Airlines loses about 24 employees after purchase

HONOLULU — Southern Airways says it is laying off 10 percent of Mokulele Airlines' staff after acquiring the Big Island-based carrier earlier this month. The Honolulu Star-Advertiser reports the airline confirmed Thursday that it has cut about two dozen employees, mostly ground staff in Hawaii. The airline previously said the airline would absorb all of Mokulele's employees following the deal that closed Feb. 8. Mokulele president Rob McKinney said in a letter to employees that the staffing changes were a "short-term pain necessary to ensure the longevity of our brand." Southern chief marketing officer Keith Sisson says the carrier hopes the cuts are short-lived. Southern Airways became the largest commuter airline operator after acquiring Mokulele. It now serves 30 cities across five U.S. time zones.

Oh well.
—

I would listen to this guy. He has experience with what the FAA thinks about the 135 vfr Caravan SIC stuff...

Ugh, never fun for anyone to lose their job. Best of luck to the folks affected.

[QUOTE=PT6LOL;2768460]so you said according to the reg, unless the operator is participated in PDP or otherwise logging SIC is not legal?

[QUOTE=themenace321;2770524]One can only log SIC time if required by aircraft type certificate, or regulation.

[QUOTE=themenace321;2770524]
No. PT6LOL made the statement.

AC135-43 is succinct how to have operators include, in their Ops Specs the requirement of SICs on aircraft that have been certified for single pilot operations. For example, a low time pilot would be better off getting a job with an operator that has the Phenom or little Cessna jet in their fleets. Far more credible time than SIC in a C208.

PT6LOL has personal experience with FAA not accepting SIC time in C208 at Mokulele.

Does Mokulele have an approved SIC PDP?

They didn't back then. PDP is a very new thing. I don't know if they have one now.

[QUOTE=themenace321;2770524]Yes .

PURPOSE OF THIS ADVISORY CIRCULAR (AC). This AC provides information and guidelines to Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 135
air carriers/operators to aid in the development of a Second in Command Professional Development Program (SIC PDP) which meets the requirements of part 135, § 135.99(c). This program allows a pilot employed by the part 135 air carrier/operator and serving
as an assigned second in command (SIC) in a multiengine airplane or single-engine, turbine-powered airplane to log SIC flight time during operations that do not require a second pilot.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_135-43.pdf

I guess the real question is will employers post regional care about this 208 SIC time?

Obviously the regionals aren’t minding, but moving to major/lcc after makes we wonder if they will question the time or strength of applicant.

Depends hiring boards/HR have a double standard when it comes to the old moral compass.:rolleyes:

Airlines need pilots... no doubt about that... However with the letigous society of today... corporate attorneys want to ensure their companys’ butts are covered having the old I dotted... and T crossed.

The old moral compass thing goes include the smaller 135 operators too. SIC PDP not being included in their banner should be an omen to the unsuspecting. Logging time as SIC is a big no no.

I considered Mokulele but the cost of living in Hawaii and a $15/hr pay was just wayyyy too off-putting. You either have to have family members who you can live with, or split an apartment with 4 other pilots, so I decided to CFI. It's really not bad, I actually kind of enjoy it, just get your CFII because only training primary students blows.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

A couple of majors specify that they don’t allow applicants to count military flight engineer, WSO, EWO, and similar time. It is difficult to believe they will give more credibility to SIC time in aircraft that have no actual requirement for an SIC.