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Old 04-12-2019, 05:42 AM   #1  
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Default On rotation with an "outlyer"

Please help! My background has been some crew and single pilot ops. I now fly with a larger number of pilots on rotation. The majority are professional, polite and very sharp pilots. I was paired with a guy that berates the FA, drives very aggressive and screams at other drivers. His flying is MUCH worse than our junior FOs, totally screws up approaches. This guy introduces and generates stress that doesn't need to be there.

I am new to this company and looking to upgrade soon. This guy is filling out IOE forms on me as we speak.#@!$#@!

We are a great company with great captains who try to lower stress and bring out the best of their crew. This is how we bring the best to our customers. I welcome your input!
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:25 AM   #2  
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Exclamation That guy...

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Originally Posted by grumman41 View Post
Please help! My background has been some crew and single pilot ops. I now fly with a larger number of pilots on rotation. The majority are professional, polite and very sharp pilots. I was paired with a guy that berates the FA, drives very aggressive and screams at other drivers. His flying is MUCH worse than our junior FOs, totally screws up approaches. This guy introduces and generates stress that doesn't need to be there.

I am new to this company and looking to upgrade soon. This guy is filling out IOE forms on me as we speak.#@!$#@!

We are a great company with great captains who try to lower stress and bring out the best of their crew. This is how we bring the best to our customers. I welcome your input!
Sorry to hear that...

So, every company that I have ever worked for has had one of “those” guys/girls who has a god complex and reminds everyone constantly that they are the CAPTAIN.... You know the type... “Everything on this side of the panel is mine, and everything else is mine too, and you are just borrowing”, and “I’m the CAPTAIN!!!! I will tell the ramper if we need coffee, ice, and papers”...

Usually these pilots sink their own ship, and I guarantee that your company is aware of some of these other shenanigans.... But Captains are a more valuable commodity in today’s market. I have seen pilots use profanity to fellow crew members, FBO personnel, hotel personnel, van drivers, dispatchers, crew schedulers, even gate agents. It’s actually amazing how long that this behavior goes unchecked until the company actually does something about it. 3 companies ago, one of these jerks was M effing a dispatcher in the OCC, and the HR person heard it. One month unpaid leave with mandatory “happy school” for him if he wanted to keep his job. We were extatic that someone finally took this senior Captain bully down.

Sometimes its a cultural thing. The above behavior is condoned and even expected in some countries where the Captain is still god. These are places where accident rates are still high and where modern CRM culture has yet to shine a light into the darkness. Some of these Captains bring this culture with them when they emigrate. They might not even realize that this behavior is unacceptable. And I guarantee that they treat fellow Captains, whom they see as equals, great: Only FO’s and FA’s ever see the brunt of their wrath.

Personally, I would reach out to other FO’s and FA’s to see if it’s just you having the clash with him or whether it’s everyone there. Chances are, the reason you were paired with him is that everyone else has refused to fly with him. I have a friend who kept being paired rotation after rotation with a similar jerk, and couldn’t figure out why.. Well, it turns out that everyone else refused to fly with him and my friend was actually enabling this guy to continue his rampage by continuing to fly with the jerk. When my friend finally makes that difficult call to HR, Scheduling, the DO, the CP, etc. , the company will HAVE do something about it.

This is a tough decision to have to make, but the abuse will continue until someone stands up to them. Maybe a bad analogy, but abusers and rapists continue their behavior until a brave woman/man stands up and speaks out. This is tough, because often these same people will dig themselves in deep with the Management. And they often have a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Heyde personality, being great folks to drink a beer with, but once the cockpit door (if you have one..) closes, watch out. Also, these people will often be great with other Captains.. “What do you mean...! He’s a GREAT guy....!” Question: Have you ever flown with him? “No, but we’ve shared a lot of beers and laughs together..”. Again, this guy only bullys people that he sees as beneath him.. never his equals.

Sometimes, getting away from the situation is one of the least painful solutions and is to just get away, anywhere. Due to a mass furlough, I was forced to fly with the jerk described above, because I was now junior and everyone else had refused. I lived in BNA and my line was out of ATL; Not at all a bad commute, but my life was miserable. A friend’s Wife sent me one of those happy, huggy e-mails that talked about if you died, who were the people that you spent your last moments together with.. So, when another slot opened up all the way across the Country in PDX, I called the CP and volunteered. When he said that I was nuts to commute that far, I told him that I didn’t want to spend the last moments of my life with Bob M... LOL! It’s one of the best decisions that I have ever made in aviation.

So, you have some difficult choices to make.. You can get away from the situation like I did and wait until this guy sinks himself (which will eventually happen). You can call and ask to move to a different rotation for “family” or whatever reason, and that may solve your problem. However, by doing that you are damning a fellow pilot to fly with that person and the abuse will continue. But the tough decision will be, after consulting other fellow employees, to make a call to your HR, Chief Pilot, or DO and refuse to fly with him. Hopefully, this guy doesn’t play golf with any of them and the Company will be forced to act. In my experience, it is always the person with the least value and power in the cockpit and the Company, the FA or the FO, that has to make this difficult stand. If you are wrong, it could cost you your job, but do you really want to work in that environment anyway?

In the end, you must look yourself in the mirror and ask “is it just me?”. If the answer is no, then as long as you wait and endure this treatment, you are enabling it. What you accept, you condone.

Best of luck, and I hope that this helps. There are too many great flying jobs out there today to put up with this abuse....

Last edited by B727DRVR; 04-12-2019 at 07:41 AM. Reason: I wasn’t sure if I should use the word “douche”
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:54 AM   #3  
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Originally Posted by B727DRVR View Post
This is a tough decision to have to make, but the abuse will continue until someone stands up to them....If you are wrong, it could cost you your job, but do you really want to work in that environment anyway?

In the end, you must look yourself in the mirror and ask “is it just me?”. If the answer is no, then as long as you wait and endure this treatment, you are enabling it. What you accept, you condone.

Best of luck, and I hope that this helps. There are too many great flying jobs out there today to put up with this abuse....

THIS!!

Why tolerate it? It’s easy to be nice to people. Life is better when you’re kind. Our society depends on an unwritten social contract—someone holds an elevator, you thank them. They mispronounce a name, you gently state it correctly. We all benefit from being civil, and we all pay it forward.

Perhaps it’s because for me, I’m cognizant there’s less time ahead than behind, but the older I get, the less tolerant I am of this nonsense. That’s true under any circumstance, even when it’s not directed at me.

Often I’ve found simply asserting “that’s no way to speak to a colleague, please stop” stuns the offender into stopping. Some bullies don’t need a verbal slap, just a reality check. Others need the verbal slap - “that behavior is wrong. STOP!”

If someone fires me for refusing to be bullied, F ‘em. They’ll have to replace me and any job not being yelled at is better than that one. No amount of cash is worth that stress and emotion.

Good luck, and stay kind.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:21 AM   #4  
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I worked for an employer with just such a captain. In fact, I had him just after completing OE. This captain was known to everyone, yet inexplicably continued in his position.

I approached a standards captain about the matter, and was asked to write an informal report. The same standards captain conducted a survey of others with the same response. At some point in the near future, the problem captain was downgraded after caught engaging in his behaviors, by an offline pilot.

Every company seems to have one or two. I knew one who had to take anger management classes, and I've no idea how he kept his position, but he did.

Do what you can, decide that you won't be that kind of captain when you upgrade, and try to minimize being around this guy. Share your concerns privately (but not with him). If it's too objectionable, move on. I have, and it was worth it.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:15 AM   #5  
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Jesus Christ, where did you all find the time to type out War and Peace? That's like *counts on fingers* I dunno but it's a lot of words. Shouldn't you be doing the preflight? Also, here are my bags, put them in the hold GENTLY. And don't spill the GD ice this time! And wipe the tables down again. And better take the Honeypot out for fresh juice just in case. Then load the FMS. If I see that fing phone in your hand I'll throw it in an engine. I'll call if I need anything, going in to wait on the passengers.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:18 AM   #6  
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If I see that fing phone in your hand I'll throw it in an engine.

I want to say this every flight/meal/elevator ride...
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:22 AM   #7  
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Quit now.... go to a regional... never look back... no regrets
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Old 04-13-2019, 05:23 PM   #8  
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Quit now.... go to a regional... never look back... no regrets
Yep. Worst case scenario you’re stuck with them for four days and then you bid avoid them forever. If they’re really really bad and won’t quit after you tell them to back off go to pro standards and they’ll give them a lashing and a chance to shape up before the company gets involved.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:15 AM   #9  
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Thanks for the input guys. Unfortunately our rotation is twelve days. I will try to rise above and "be nice", unfortunately these personality type see that as a sign of weakness.

One poster is correct....they come across as nice with certain captains, check airman, ect. Probably most condescending with FAs, treats them like they are 12 yo and 50 IQ.

We have a great pilot group and proactive management so I have confidence this will be resolved. This is NOT something they want going on. Its a FINE line when someone is filling out your upgrade forms.


Peace!
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:26 AM   #10  
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See above post...
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