Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Part 135
Logging PIC time in 91/135 vs 121 >

Logging PIC time in 91/135 vs 121

Notices
Part 135 Part 135 commercial operators

Logging PIC time in 91/135 vs 121

Old 09-12-2019, 06:27 PM
  #11  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Position: Full time contractor
Posts: 2
Default

Originally Posted by EMAW View Post
Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
Thanks. Appreciate the references. 135 is a bit rusty.

My KA 350 reference though was geared toward Part 91. I recently had to burst a CFI’s bubble telling him his 58 or so hours of SIC time in a KA 300 can’t be logged even though the the owners request an SIC.
cptsesso is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 08:55 PM
  #12  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Originally Posted by cptsesso View Post
My KA 350 reference though was geared toward Part 91. I recently had to burst a CFI’s bubble telling him his 58 or so hours of SIC time in a KA 300 can’t be logged even though the the owners request an SIC.
Here’s the thing with logbooks, the FAA and the airline have their own rules. The FAA cares about currency and what you put on an application for something like the ATP. The airlines have their rules, i.e. 91.1 PIC definition. I think we beat this horse in an older 135 thread on 135 SIC. Simply put, the logbook is yours. Also, those 58 hrs are still experience in a commuter category aircraft. Would I include those hours when filling out Airline Apps or 8710? Nope. Would it go in my times on a resume for a King Air job? Definitely. Will it be a talking point at an airline interview? Probably. In round numbers, if the airline requires 1500 hrs and your application has that you have 2000 hrs and your logbook reflects 2500 hrs, you’re accurately presenting your experience based on the airline’s requirements. It *should* be a non-issue.
deadstick35 is offline  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:57 AM
  #13  
In a land of unicorns
 
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,406
Default

Originally Posted by EMAW View Post
Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
I'll add an AND
AND the PIC has completed a 135.297(g) check.
dera is online now  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:45 PM
  #14  
Line holder
 
symbian simian's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,215
Default

PIC:
you are the only occupant.
You sign for the aircraft.

If you don't have the required hours using these rules:

You don't have enough experience.
symbian simian is offline  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:01 PM
  #15  
Gets Weekends Off
 
JamesNoBrakes's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,977
Default

Originally Posted by cptsesso View Post
If 135 OPS Spec requires an SIC then yes you could log it.

If insurance requires an SIC or the boss wants an SIC or the mailman’s uncles Dr.’s brother in law wants an SIC, etc. you can not log it. Has to be required per regulations. Anything else does not matter including insurance.

If it’s a KA 350 and the PIC does not require an SIC per his Type Rating but the company installs one of the baggage area seats (does not have to be occupied), then an SIC is required (10 pax seats) and can log the time. Or in the standard configuration (9 pax seats), if the autopilot is MEL’d inop then an SIC is required and can log the time (autopilot in lieu of SIC).
If it's 135 and 2 pilots are used to allow 10 hours of flight time, then an SIC is required by regulation.

§135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.

(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.

(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—

(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or

(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
JamesNoBrakes is offline  
Old 09-16-2019, 08:00 AM
  #16  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
Default

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
If it's 135 and 2 pilots are used to allow 10 hours of flight time, then an SIC is required by regulation.
I think in most situations your causation is backwards. Most 135 companies don’t employ and train FOs so they can get an extra 2 hrs a day. But, if they use 2 pilots because they are required to by regulation, then they can use them for the 2 extra hrs a day.
EMAW is offline  
Old 10-04-2019, 07:24 PM
  #17  
New Hire
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: LJ35 Capt
Posts: 5
Default

Originally Posted by symbian simian View Post
PIC:
you are the only occupant.
You sign for the aircraft.

If you don't have the required hours using these rules:

You don't have enough experience.
Here is one of my conundrums when filling out airline apps:
PA-28 (Trained and instructed in it)
PIC: 158
Instructor: 312 (not included in PIC)
Dual/Student: 105
Total: 505 (the above totals don't equal this)

When I was an instrument student (already Private pilot), and receiving instruction, I was logging PIC. Which after reading Duncan 2012 LOI, it appears I can do so.

Since this provision was first introduced in 1952, the regulations have expanded the conditions under which a pilot may log PIC time. Under §61.51 (e)(1), a pilot may log PIC time when the pilot (i) is the sole manipulator of the controls of a aircraft for which the pilot is rated (category, class, and type rating, if appropriate ), (ii) is the sole occupant of an aircraft, or (iii) acts as PIC of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
I absolutely want to convey the 100% truth on the time I've ACTUALLY logged. I'm just trying to figure out if the airlines really want me to delete ALL PIC time logged while I was an Instrument, Commercial and CFI student.

I could easily just total up my Captain time+Solo+CFI time to get what the airlines are looking for, but I wonder what they will think if they look in my logbook and see that the totals at the bottom of the pages don't reflect the numbers I have on my app/resume.
gordonam is offline  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:06 PM
  #18  
Line holder
 
symbian simian's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,215
Default

Originally Posted by gordonam View Post
Here is one of my conundrums when filling out airline apps:
PA-28 (Trained and instructed in it)
PIC: 158
Instructor: 312 (not included in PIC)
Dual/Student: 105
Total: 505 (the above totals don't equal this)

When I was an instrument student (already Private pilot), and receiving instruction, I was logging PIC. Which after reading Duncan 2012 LOI, it appears I can do so.



I absolutely want to convey the 100% truth on the time I've ACTUALLY logged. I'm just trying to figure out if the airlines really want me to delete ALL PIC time logged while I was an Instrument, Commercial and CFI student.

I could easily just total up my Captain time+Solo+CFI time to get what the airlines are looking for, but I wonder what they will think if they look in my logbook and see that the totals at the bottom of the pages don't reflect the numbers I have on my app/resume.
All I can say: trying to pad your numbers is not going to help. I totally understand the drive to get to the front of the line, I personally think being conservative is the way to go, and definitely be able to explain your hours.
symbian simian is offline  
Old 10-05-2019, 05:15 AM
  #19  
New Hire
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: LJ35 Capt
Posts: 5
Default

Originally Posted by symbian simian View Post
All I can say: trying to pad your numbers is not going to help. I totally understand the drive to get to the front of the line, I personally think being conservative is the way to go, and definitely be able to explain your hours.
I agree with you. I would much rather take the time to get it 100% correct now, than have it come up on an airline interview and be questioned about it. Luckily I have an electronic log book so going back and changing the times on those flights from PIC to some other title should be fairly easy.

What category do you guys log instead of PIC for time like this (instrument student flying with your CFI)? Apparently the FAA (and most 135's) still want to see this time counted as PIC on 8710's so I'm trying to figure out an easy way to total it when needed. "Acting PIC time" with "sole manipulator time"? "Pilot Flying Time," "Student PIC time"?

Thanks for the help!
gordonam is offline  
Old 02-12-2021, 11:06 PM
  #20  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 1
Default

Originally Posted by EMAW View Post
Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
Is there a public site you can view the ops specs?
OCAl is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
FLY6584
Aviation Law
1
03-02-2015 05:42 PM
Around123
Regional
73
01-09-2014 09:37 AM
Cheddar
United
98
05-30-2013 04:51 AM
sinsilvia666
Aviation Law
60
09-13-2012 04:26 AM
sellener
Part 135
21
03-24-2009 07:29 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices