Employer threats - What would you do?
09-26-2019, 03:45 PM
#12
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
Alright to give you the benefit of the doubt I looked it up.
Now this is from a generic PC-12 manual I found online.
https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/dat...211%20R14_.pdf
Your company’s manuals obviously apply/overrule where approved.
You can be the only person to determine what you saw.
Now what this manual does NOT state is if this is a single or a dual indication failure.
Your MEL or Dispatch Deviation Guide should explain that.
Now this is from a generic PC-12 manual I found online.
https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/dat...211%20R14_.pdf
Your company’s manuals obviously apply/overrule where approved.
You can be the only person to determine what you saw.
Now what this manual does NOT state is if this is a single or a dual indication failure.
Your MEL or Dispatch Deviation Guide should explain that.
Last edited by TiredSoul; 09-26-2019 at 04:03 PM.
09-26-2019, 06:06 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CE-650
Posts: 397
Did you press and reset your total fuel quantity? What did it say? Was it less than it should be? Check your used fuel and reset the total fuel quantity....does it match up and make sense?
To me a fuel indicator that's going haywire is not a loss of fuel, but a faulty reading. Is the plane balanced? Yes, then you're fine. That's a write up when you reach your destination.
How bad was the previous fuel leak? A small drip isn't going to make any difference, granted it's not good, but not enough to turn back to a place that has no maintenance. Especially when the plane is still balanced and you can use all the other info to piece it together.
It's a learning experience and you're on to better things. It's a great story during a future interview....where you were, what happened, what you did, what you and your company learned from it.
To me a fuel indicator that's going haywire is not a loss of fuel, but a faulty reading. Is the plane balanced? Yes, then you're fine. That's a write up when you reach your destination.
How bad was the previous fuel leak? A small drip isn't going to make any difference, granted it's not good, but not enough to turn back to a place that has no maintenance. Especially when the plane is still balanced and you can use all the other info to piece it together.
It's a learning experience and you're on to better things. It's a great story during a future interview....where you were, what happened, what you did, what you and your company learned from it.
09-27-2019, 03:45 AM
#14
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
This ^^^.......
Experience gives you the tools to handle events like this.
Put this experience in your toolbox.
* by the way, employers/chief pilots will expect you to go if it’s legal.
You’ll need a really really strong case to not take an aircraft if the MEL says go.
You can still expect to end up in the Chief Pilots office regardless.
Experience gives you the tools to handle events like this.
Put this experience in your toolbox.
* by the way, employers/chief pilots will expect you to go if it’s legal.
You’ll need a really really strong case to not take an aircraft if the MEL says go.
You can still expect to end up in the Chief Pilots office regardless.
09-27-2019, 05:47 AM
#15
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Position: Row 1
Posts: 7
Go to the OSHA website read all the requirements and file a whistleblower complaint if you feel it applies. But yes, move on but never compromise your personal safety policy. Here is some advice before y'all make any more decisions
REPOST:
Of course be free to make your own decisions but be patient and bear in mind that all 135 operators are basically the same. NETJETS, GAMA XO and DPJ (now) are at the top really in that order as they have the money to operate on a relatively safe platform. Although NETJETS operate as 91K they train and test to jeopardy part 121. These four are not included in my comments.
The others, some are in the ballpark better than others, some are like a used car lot despite the rantings of the usual sycophants and other 'team players' where adherence to SOP's is inversely proportional to revenue.
Watch out for companies trying to grow too fast with that 'quaility' as some weird selling point yet they have someones kid write their facebook page saying how "grate they r". Growth requires infrastructure FIRST with proper investment and experience. Quality not Quantity.
What is your long term goal?? Choose wisely Dudes and Dudesses! meaning "y'all should go to the airlines"
Questions to ask if you are still hell bent on career suicide:
Most important; Are you getting proper progressive training? (FSI) then after the sim real IOE time with standardized training syllabus, monitored and documented progress by a real training Captain with instructional background and Jet training experience from a real training department. Not just dropped in with some old fart who doesn't follow checklists or SOP's, doesn't brief and thinks flying with defects (mechanical ones, not other pilots) makes him/her a real pilot and helps the company or some young resume padding Jock/Jockess fresh off an elastic band powered helicopter.
Do you actually fly from Day 1 like the airlines do? not some ludicrous don't touch the controls for 25 hrs then no flying with Passengers, etc. You either have the rating or you don't.
Watch the video's on the Lear crash at TEB, read the CVR transcript. This way of operating is way more common than you would like to know about. Are you going to speak up as a new FO? unlikely, as you would soon get the career enhancing 'being difficult' label.
If you are a Captain do you really have the experience to fly in the North East at night mid winter with a newbie FO? Do you get full recurrent training every six months or do they cheap out with a 6 month COT (if they do that, is it tailored to issues that crews have been having recently like busting SIDS and STARS?).
For a real career in flying GO TO THE REGIONALS, suck up the lower pay and conditions for real 121 time for the training and experience. Do your apprenticeship!
Remember, a 121 carrier will ask you why you went Catfish airways during a strong airline hiring environment. What are you going to say? Well, my buddy was there, it was easier... the money was good....I got to fly Left seat in a puddle jumper ....If so, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the interview if you even get one.
The bottom feeder 135's can ruin your career and when you do go to 121 your primacy of bad habits, minimal checklist usage and misunderstandings will cause you a lot of issues. You are just cheap labor for these places, a right seat busboy/girl, you deserve better training after spending all your money originally.
A light Cessna Jet / King Air that is single crew capable with a single crew rated Captain may have you being an observer unless the ops specs allow you to log SIC multi-crew time on Part 91 positioning flights.
Do they have structured Safety meetings regularly as ARGUS/WYVERN SMS mandates and are the de-identified minutes disseminated to the staff like Netjets do for education?
Do they have a Trained Safety Manger with a confidential non-punitive reporting system? Or is the Safety person just a figurehead for the next audit? Are they part of the Aviation Safety Action Program?
Do they even have an SMS? albeit cut and paste and has anyone read it?
Check the background of the post holders;
Does the Training manager have a background in structured Jet operations? Are the top management really experienced in Aviation and Airline trained or just used car salesmen? Have the dispatchers all passed the relevant exams so that their certificate is on the line also?
As Capt Fred rightly asked, do they have a 145 certificate? Who does the light maintenance? Who does the heavy maintenance? Do they audit the third party maintenance organisations? or is it Joe in his Toyota Tacoma with his Home Depot wrenches and a digital signature over the phone?
Is the owner/company financially sound? What other companies were they involved with? What happened there? This stuff is public domain, google the people first, then ask the questions knowing the truth.
Are they any lawsuits pending and/or settlements with the State department of labor? Are there any FAA violations?
What insurances do they have in place when on duty? Driving a rental car? In an UBER? Work related injuries?
Do they constantly feel the need to tell everyone how good and safe they are and how much they 'look after' the wonderful team? And how they never have incidents or violations? Do they just hide them or delete the reports.
Remember ARGUS Platinum means NO REPORTED INCIDENTS, a structured safety reporting system and solid SMS. Be suspicious. Look for ISBAO stage 3, Stage 2 is OK and stage 1 means nothing at all.
An ARGUS/WYVERN GOLD company is a better bet as you know they have been relatively honest and they know they need to improve.
Do the same people post non-stop on social media about 'Nirvana aviation' and how great it all is and 'like' everything the company posts? (recruitment bonuses) Y'all need to run from these ones.
These are the just due diligence questions you should be asking, if you don't like the answers or you are given the runaround then go elsewhere. If someone disagrees with these suggestions, look at who they work for and go elsewhere.
Also, don't always believe the social media postings saying good or bad, have a list of questions and ask every company the same ones in the same order to get a feel for the answers. Be wary of confirmation bias and hearing what you want to hear. Keep a spreadsheet and score the Q&A. A really smart interviewer will see your potential, if you are this diligent with yourself then you will be with their clients and equipment.
Yes it is a lot to think about but in the information age be smart is all I am saying, it is your future! I am not attacking or condoning anyone in particular but, the sea is full of sharks so build your cage well and the best of luck. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had, it is up to you.
REPOST:
Of course be free to make your own decisions but be patient and bear in mind that all 135 operators are basically the same. NETJETS, GAMA XO and DPJ (now) are at the top really in that order as they have the money to operate on a relatively safe platform. Although NETJETS operate as 91K they train and test to jeopardy part 121. These four are not included in my comments.
The others, some are in the ballpark better than others, some are like a used car lot despite the rantings of the usual sycophants and other 'team players' where adherence to SOP's is inversely proportional to revenue.
Watch out for companies trying to grow too fast with that 'quaility' as some weird selling point yet they have someones kid write their facebook page saying how "grate they r". Growth requires infrastructure FIRST with proper investment and experience. Quality not Quantity.
What is your long term goal?? Choose wisely Dudes and Dudesses! meaning "y'all should go to the airlines"
Questions to ask if you are still hell bent on career suicide:
Most important; Are you getting proper progressive training? (FSI) then after the sim real IOE time with standardized training syllabus, monitored and documented progress by a real training Captain with instructional background and Jet training experience from a real training department. Not just dropped in with some old fart who doesn't follow checklists or SOP's, doesn't brief and thinks flying with defects (mechanical ones, not other pilots) makes him/her a real pilot and helps the company or some young resume padding Jock/Jockess fresh off an elastic band powered helicopter.
Do you actually fly from Day 1 like the airlines do? not some ludicrous don't touch the controls for 25 hrs then no flying with Passengers, etc. You either have the rating or you don't.
Watch the video's on the Lear crash at TEB, read the CVR transcript. This way of operating is way more common than you would like to know about. Are you going to speak up as a new FO? unlikely, as you would soon get the career enhancing 'being difficult' label.
If you are a Captain do you really have the experience to fly in the North East at night mid winter with a newbie FO? Do you get full recurrent training every six months or do they cheap out with a 6 month COT (if they do that, is it tailored to issues that crews have been having recently like busting SIDS and STARS?).
For a real career in flying GO TO THE REGIONALS, suck up the lower pay and conditions for real 121 time for the training and experience. Do your apprenticeship!
Remember, a 121 carrier will ask you why you went Catfish airways during a strong airline hiring environment. What are you going to say? Well, my buddy was there, it was easier... the money was good....I got to fly Left seat in a puddle jumper ....If so, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the interview if you even get one.
The bottom feeder 135's can ruin your career and when you do go to 121 your primacy of bad habits, minimal checklist usage and misunderstandings will cause you a lot of issues. You are just cheap labor for these places, a right seat busboy/girl, you deserve better training after spending all your money originally.
A light Cessna Jet / King Air that is single crew capable with a single crew rated Captain may have you being an observer unless the ops specs allow you to log SIC multi-crew time on Part 91 positioning flights.
Do they have structured Safety meetings regularly as ARGUS/WYVERN SMS mandates and are the de-identified minutes disseminated to the staff like Netjets do for education?
Do they have a Trained Safety Manger with a confidential non-punitive reporting system? Or is the Safety person just a figurehead for the next audit? Are they part of the Aviation Safety Action Program?
Do they even have an SMS? albeit cut and paste and has anyone read it?
Check the background of the post holders;
Does the Training manager have a background in structured Jet operations? Are the top management really experienced in Aviation and Airline trained or just used car salesmen? Have the dispatchers all passed the relevant exams so that their certificate is on the line also?
As Capt Fred rightly asked, do they have a 145 certificate? Who does the light maintenance? Who does the heavy maintenance? Do they audit the third party maintenance organisations? or is it Joe in his Toyota Tacoma with his Home Depot wrenches and a digital signature over the phone?
Is the owner/company financially sound? What other companies were they involved with? What happened there? This stuff is public domain, google the people first, then ask the questions knowing the truth.
Are they any lawsuits pending and/or settlements with the State department of labor? Are there any FAA violations?
What insurances do they have in place when on duty? Driving a rental car? In an UBER? Work related injuries?
Do they constantly feel the need to tell everyone how good and safe they are and how much they 'look after' the wonderful team? And how they never have incidents or violations? Do they just hide them or delete the reports.
Remember ARGUS Platinum means NO REPORTED INCIDENTS, a structured safety reporting system and solid SMS. Be suspicious. Look for ISBAO stage 3, Stage 2 is OK and stage 1 means nothing at all.
An ARGUS/WYVERN GOLD company is a better bet as you know they have been relatively honest and they know they need to improve.
Do the same people post non-stop on social media about 'Nirvana aviation' and how great it all is and 'like' everything the company posts? (recruitment bonuses) Y'all need to run from these ones.
These are the just due diligence questions you should be asking, if you don't like the answers or you are given the runaround then go elsewhere. If someone disagrees with these suggestions, look at who they work for and go elsewhere.
Also, don't always believe the social media postings saying good or bad, have a list of questions and ask every company the same ones in the same order to get a feel for the answers. Be wary of confirmation bias and hearing what you want to hear. Keep a spreadsheet and score the Q&A. A really smart interviewer will see your potential, if you are this diligent with yourself then you will be with their clients and equipment.
Yes it is a lot to think about but in the information age be smart is all I am saying, it is your future! I am not attacking or condoning anyone in particular but, the sea is full of sharks so build your cage well and the best of luck. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had, it is up to you.
Last edited by cannotdupilcate; 09-27-2019 at 06:06 AM.
10-14-2019, 04:56 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 62
If you truly believe an operation is a serious risk to your career or safety, who cares what the employee manual says, you should have given 4hrs notice of leaving not 4 weeks.
If you are convinced you made the proper professional decision in the interest of both you and the company, who cares what they call it.
If you're convinced you are in the right, who cares what they tell your next employer, if your decision bothers your future employer, you don't want to go work for them anyhow.
So the real question is, "did I make a good decision?" If you're convinced that the answer is yes, then how the other side responds is irrelevant, just move on and don't look back.
If you are convinced you made the proper professional decision in the interest of both you and the company, who cares what they call it.
If you're convinced you are in the right, who cares what they tell your next employer, if your decision bothers your future employer, you don't want to go work for them anyhow.
So the real question is, "did I make a good decision?" If you're convinced that the answer is yes, then how the other side responds is irrelevant, just move on and don't look back.
10-14-2019, 06:57 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: And hold
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by VOLLU
I had a surreal and upsetting encounter with a pilot manager at my company last week. I'd appreciate others' opinions on whether I should take any further action or just let it go and be grateful that I'm out of that toxic work environment. I gave my employer at least 21 days prior notice of resignation as required by the employee handbook. Note that this event happened during my second to last scheduled trip for the company. I've omitted the identifying information for now.
Ten minutes after departure from K*** in a PT-6 powered single, carrying 8 passengers, I decided to return to K*** for landing when the left fuel gauge started giving grossly erratic and erroneous indications. The right gauge was steady, but seemed lower than I expected. The total fuel quantity indicated seemed about right given that I flew and fuel the plane on two previous legs.
My company does not have mx services available at K***. There is an MEL which provides that: "one indicator may be inoperative provided the triple trim indicator is operative, the aileron trim is operative, and
if autopilot is used, it must be disconnected every 20 minutes to detect any possible fuel imbalance." The procedure states: "crew will ensure:
a) triple trim Indicator is operative by moving the associate trim tabs, and
b) if the autopilot is to be used, while in flight, disconnect the autopilot every 20 minutes. A fuel imbalance is detected by abnormal aileron pressure to maintain wings level."
In light of this MEL procedure, the company ordered me to continue the flight. I refused to do so because: a) this airplane was grounded two days earlier due to a fuel leak, and b) continuation of the trip involved night flight over mountainous terrain. I had no interest in conducting the "experiment" stated in the MEL under those conditions.
Here's where things get weird. This is a near-verbatim transcript of my phone conversation with one of the pilot managers. (I took meticulous notes during the conversation and another person heard everything.) The pilot manager's words are in regular text. Mine are in italic.
_________________________________
"I don’t know what your situation is entirely. I know this is your second to last shift. I don’t know what you have planned next. So I don’t know… I don’t know if the consequences are going to mean much to your personally. Like I said, I’m not trying to make this sound threatening. It’s just part of my job to make sure you understand the situation. So, since there’s not a good reason otherwise for the plane to be dispatched, that means it’s really just coming down to a refusal to fly. If you were sticking with the company that would be a write-up. If you’re going somewhere else that’s going to inquire about your employment here that could be a potential issue. Unfortunately, I just can’t find any way but to describe it as a refusal to fly."
"It’s a refusal to fly because I don’t feel that it’s safe. Don’t talk about how it may go on my record and subsequent employer’s may find out about it because now you’re getting into an area that is kind of above your domain as (pilot manager.) So, please don’t take this conversation in that direction."
"I’m not trying to be threatening at all. I just want to make sure…"
"Then why did you say that?"
"I’m just trying to make sure that you fully understand the situation. I don’t want us to end tonight and then you be surprised by something down the road."
"So you are threatening me. I was scheduled to fly today, tomorrow, and then I’m scheduled to fly (another airport) on Sunday and Monday. I plan to end my time at (Airline) with my safety and pilot’s license intact. I am not going to do anything that compromises my safety. I just don’t think this MEL issue is safe. I’m not going to do anything that I think is unsafe. We just need to leave it at that. If the company doesn’t want me to fly tomorrow… doesn’t want me to fly (other airport) on Sunday and Monday, fine. I just need to move on with my life. Don’t intimate what’s going to happen. That’s really the wrong way to take this conversation."
"I’m sorry it came across that way. Like I said, it’s just my job to make sure you’re not surprised. Do you have any further questions?"
"No. It’s ten o’clock. I’ve been on duty for twelve hours. I don’t think it’s safe. Nobody’s going to fault me for doing something that I think is unsafe. If it was daytime, I would do this. But, I’m not flying over the (specific mountainous area) at night with the MEL “experiment” you want me to do."
"OK. Just as long as you understand the situation."
_________________________________________
I documented the event in an e-mail to the CEO, who replied only that he'd forward my concerns to the Director of Safety.
I gave my Notice of Resignation four weeks ago without having another job to go to because this company is a serious daily risk to my physical safety and my airman's certificate. I since have TWO job offers, and I'm concerned that my former employer will make trouble for me during the background screening process.
Should I stay quiet and hope they're not that stupid? Should I take some preemptive action? Should I report this to the FAA? I mostly want to forget about my entire time with this nightmare company and move on with my life.
By the way... the aircraft was grounded the next day when another pilot discovered fuel leaking from the same fitting that was supposedly repaired before my flight.
Ten minutes after departure from K*** in a PT-6 powered single, carrying 8 passengers, I decided to return to K*** for landing when the left fuel gauge started giving grossly erratic and erroneous indications. The right gauge was steady, but seemed lower than I expected. The total fuel quantity indicated seemed about right given that I flew and fuel the plane on two previous legs.
My company does not have mx services available at K***. There is an MEL which provides that: "one indicator may be inoperative provided the triple trim indicator is operative, the aileron trim is operative, and
if autopilot is used, it must be disconnected every 20 minutes to detect any possible fuel imbalance." The procedure states: "crew will ensure:
a) triple trim Indicator is operative by moving the associate trim tabs, and
b) if the autopilot is to be used, while in flight, disconnect the autopilot every 20 minutes. A fuel imbalance is detected by abnormal aileron pressure to maintain wings level."
In light of this MEL procedure, the company ordered me to continue the flight. I refused to do so because: a) this airplane was grounded two days earlier due to a fuel leak, and b) continuation of the trip involved night flight over mountainous terrain. I had no interest in conducting the "experiment" stated in the MEL under those conditions.
Here's where things get weird. This is a near-verbatim transcript of my phone conversation with one of the pilot managers. (I took meticulous notes during the conversation and another person heard everything.) The pilot manager's words are in regular text. Mine are in italic.
_________________________________
"I don’t know what your situation is entirely. I know this is your second to last shift. I don’t know what you have planned next. So I don’t know… I don’t know if the consequences are going to mean much to your personally. Like I said, I’m not trying to make this sound threatening. It’s just part of my job to make sure you understand the situation. So, since there’s not a good reason otherwise for the plane to be dispatched, that means it’s really just coming down to a refusal to fly. If you were sticking with the company that would be a write-up. If you’re going somewhere else that’s going to inquire about your employment here that could be a potential issue. Unfortunately, I just can’t find any way but to describe it as a refusal to fly."
"It’s a refusal to fly because I don’t feel that it’s safe. Don’t talk about how it may go on my record and subsequent employer’s may find out about it because now you’re getting into an area that is kind of above your domain as (pilot manager.) So, please don’t take this conversation in that direction."
"I’m not trying to be threatening at all. I just want to make sure…"
"Then why did you say that?"
"I’m just trying to make sure that you fully understand the situation. I don’t want us to end tonight and then you be surprised by something down the road."
"So you are threatening me. I was scheduled to fly today, tomorrow, and then I’m scheduled to fly (another airport) on Sunday and Monday. I plan to end my time at (Airline) with my safety and pilot’s license intact. I am not going to do anything that compromises my safety. I just don’t think this MEL issue is safe. I’m not going to do anything that I think is unsafe. We just need to leave it at that. If the company doesn’t want me to fly tomorrow… doesn’t want me to fly (other airport) on Sunday and Monday, fine. I just need to move on with my life. Don’t intimate what’s going to happen. That’s really the wrong way to take this conversation."
"I’m sorry it came across that way. Like I said, it’s just my job to make sure you’re not surprised. Do you have any further questions?"
"No. It’s ten o’clock. I’ve been on duty for twelve hours. I don’t think it’s safe. Nobody’s going to fault me for doing something that I think is unsafe. If it was daytime, I would do this. But, I’m not flying over the (specific mountainous area) at night with the MEL “experiment” you want me to do."
"OK. Just as long as you understand the situation."
_________________________________________
I documented the event in an e-mail to the CEO, who replied only that he'd forward my concerns to the Director of Safety.
I gave my Notice of Resignation four weeks ago without having another job to go to because this company is a serious daily risk to my physical safety and my airman's certificate. I since have TWO job offers, and I'm concerned that my former employer will make trouble for me during the background screening process.
Should I stay quiet and hope they're not that stupid? Should I take some preemptive action? Should I report this to the FAA? I mostly want to forget about my entire time with this nightmare company and move on with my life.
By the way... the aircraft was grounded the next day when another pilot discovered fuel leaking from the same fitting that was supposedly repaired before my flight.
10-14-2019, 08:23 PM
#19
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,467
Originally Posted by Av8tr1
For loss of fuel indication QRH says land as soon as practicable.
It says that only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
It tells you to disconnect A/P regularly to check for roll trim changes, and land as soon as practical only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
Loss of indication with no suspected fuel leak means keep on trucking.
10-14-2019, 10:57 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: And hold
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by dera
No it doesn't say that?
It says that only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
It tells you to disconnect A/P regularly to check for roll trim changes, and land as soon as practical only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
Loss of indication with no suspected fuel leak means keep on trucking.
It says that only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
It tells you to disconnect A/P regularly to check for roll trim changes, and land as soon as practical only if fuel imbalance is suspected.
Loss of indication with no suspected fuel leak means keep on trucking.
Ironically I just had my EIS crap out on me mid flight a few nights ago. Somehow I gained about 500lbs in flight. Went from 1450 something to 1988. Plane was grounded the minute I touched down per our MX dept.
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