Part 135 age limit
11-07-2022, 09:09 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
Correct.. a ton over 70 pilots there..
Originally Posted by Peabody17
Nice statement…and completely FALSE! One might even say “a lie”.
I have heard rumors thought that NetJets Management WANTED an age 70 Maximum, but obviously that would have to be negotiated with NJASAP.. Is that just a rumor?
11-07-2022, 09:52 AM
#13
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,002
Originally Posted by aeroengineer
I tried to attach the actual memo but the APC gods frowned, and I don't remember where I found it, so I cut and paste. Interested on the take of others.
There's your source.
There are four means of understanding the regulation, which are legally defensible and have authority.
The first are Federal Register preambles, when the regulation is enacted.
The second are the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation. The FAA administrator is authorized, and mandated by an Act of Congress to regulate aviation within the United States; the Administrator delegates interpretative authority of the regulation to the Chief and Regional legal counsel. Note: this authority does not extend to the FSDO level.
The third is the regulation itself, as codified in the CFR.
The fourth are administrative law judge rulings, which do not interpret the regulation nor define it, and are not precedent-setting, but do lend insight into the application of the regulation in specific circumstances.
What you referenced is an FAA Chief Counsel letter of interpretation.
11-07-2022, 10:19 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
There's your source.
There are four means of understanding the regulation, which are legally defensible and have authority.
The first are Federal Register preambles, when the regulation is enacted.
The second are the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation. The FAA administrator is authorized, and mandated by an Act of Congress to regulate aviation within the United States; the Administrator delegates interpretative authority of the regulation to the Chief and Regional legal counsel. Note: this authority does not extend to the FSDO level.
The third is the regulation itself, as codified in the CFR.
The fourth are administrative law judge rulings, which do not interpret the regulation nor define it, and are not precedent-setting, but do lend insight into the application of the regulation in specific circumstances.
What you referenced is an FAA Chief Counsel letter of interpretation.
There's your source.
There are four means of understanding the regulation, which are legally defensible and have authority.
The first are Federal Register preambles, when the regulation is enacted.
The second are the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation. The FAA administrator is authorized, and mandated by an Act of Congress to regulate aviation within the United States; the Administrator delegates interpretative authority of the regulation to the Chief and Regional legal counsel. Note: this authority does not extend to the FSDO level.
The third is the regulation itself, as codified in the CFR.
The fourth are administrative law judge rulings, which do not interpret the regulation nor define it, and are not precedent-setting, but do lend insight into the application of the regulation in specific circumstances.
What you referenced is an FAA Chief Counsel letter of interpretation.
So is it correct that the described age restrictions only apply to the operations as shown in the memo as listed below?
Also, how would one define "scheduled" in this context? So 135 charter as I see it would not be considered scheduled?
(i) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbojet powered airplanes;
(ii) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configmation of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(iii) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 passengers seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iv) Scheduled international air services, or nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
11-07-2022, 01:14 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Position: Poolside
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
I have heard rumors thought that NetJets Management WANTED an age 70 Maximum, but obviously that would have to be negotiated with NJASAP.. Is that just a rumor?
It's important to point out that NJ management's effort, as outlined in the article, would ONLY have applied to NetJets US, and not to NetJets Europe or to EJM. Thus, it is clear it is about economics and NOT safety.
11-07-2022, 02:14 PM
#16
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,002
Originally Posted by aeroengineer
So is it correct that the described age restrictions only apply to the operations as shown in the memo as listed below?
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...A/section-61.3
(j) Age limitation for certain operations.
(1) Age limitation. No person who holds a pilot certificate issued under this part may serve as a pilot on a civil airplane of U.S. registry in the following operations if the person has reached his or her 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot, his or her 65th birthday:
(i) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(iii) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iv) Scheduled international air services, or nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire, in airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Definitions.
(i) “International air service,” as used in this paragraph (j), means scheduled air service performed in airplanes for the public transport of passengers, mail, or cargo, in which the service passes through the airspace over the territory of more than one country.
(ii) “International air transportation,” as used in this paragraph (j), means air transportation performed in airplanes for the public transport of passengers, mail, or cargo, in which the service passes through the airspace over the territory of more than one country.
(1) Age limitation. No person who holds a pilot certificate issued under this part may serve as a pilot on a civil airplane of U.S. registry in the following operations if the person has reached his or her 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot, his or her 65th birthday:
(i) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(iii) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iv) Scheduled international air services, or nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire, in airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Definitions.
(i) “International air service,” as used in this paragraph (j), means scheduled air service performed in airplanes for the public transport of passengers, mail, or cargo, in which the service passes through the airspace over the territory of more than one country.
(ii) “International air transportation,” as used in this paragraph (j), means air transportation performed in airplanes for the public transport of passengers, mail, or cargo, in which the service passes through the airspace over the territory of more than one country.
Originally Posted by aeroengineer
Also, how would one define "scheduled" in this context? So 135 charter as I see it would not be considered scheduled?
14 CFR 110.2 defines both on-demand, and scheduled operations.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1.../section-110.2
On-demand operation means any operation for compensation or hire that is one of the following:
(1) Passenger-carrying operations conducted as a public charter under part 380 of this chapter or any operations in which the departure time, departure location, and arrival location are specifically negotiated with the customer or the customer's representative that are any of the following types of operations:
(i) Common carriage operations conducted with airplanes, including turbojet-powered airplanes, having a passenger-seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, except that operations using a specific airplane that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by § 119.49(a)(4) of this chapter for those operations are considered supplemental operations;
(ii) Noncommon or private carriage operations conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds; or
(iii) Any rotorcraft operation.
(2) Scheduled passenger-carrying operations conducted with one of the following types of aircraft with a frequency of operations of less than five round trips per week on at least one route between two or more points according to the published flight schedules:
(i) Airplanes, other than turbojet powered airplanes, having a maximum passenger-seat configuration of 9 seats or less, excluding each crewmember seat, and a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less; or
(ii) Rotorcraft.
(3) All-cargo operations conducted with airplanes having a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, or with rotorcraft.
(1) Passenger-carrying operations conducted as a public charter under part 380 of this chapter or any operations in which the departure time, departure location, and arrival location are specifically negotiated with the customer or the customer's representative that are any of the following types of operations:
(i) Common carriage operations conducted with airplanes, including turbojet-powered airplanes, having a passenger-seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, except that operations using a specific airplane that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by § 119.49(a)(4) of this chapter for those operations are considered supplemental operations;
(ii) Noncommon or private carriage operations conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds; or
(iii) Any rotorcraft operation.
(2) Scheduled passenger-carrying operations conducted with one of the following types of aircraft with a frequency of operations of less than five round trips per week on at least one route between two or more points according to the published flight schedules:
(i) Airplanes, other than turbojet powered airplanes, having a maximum passenger-seat configuration of 9 seats or less, excluding each crewmember seat, and a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less; or
(ii) Rotorcraft.
(3) All-cargo operations conducted with airplanes having a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, or with rotorcraft.
Scheduled operation means any common carriage passenger-carrying operation for compensation or hire conducted by an air carrier or commercial operator for which the certificate holder or its representative offers in advance the departure location, departure time, and arrival location. It does not include any passenger-carrying operation that is conducted as a public charter operation under part 380 of this chapter.
If you want to expand on the definitions above, the regulatory link will include citations, with links, below the regulation, to the Federal Register; read the comments and preambles there for explanation behind the rationale for the regulation (eg: https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ilot-age-limit, etc).
11-12-2022, 08:34 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
How convenient, 😂!
Originally Posted by Peabody17
You are correct that management wanted (and wants) a mandatory retirement age (MRA), but there currently is none for an operator like NetJets flying unscheduled under Parts 91K and 135. However, as you can see from this article (https://www.flyingmag.com/netjets-pi...ry-retirement/), there was an effort a few years ago by management and supported by the union (I don't know why) to institute an MRA of 70. The effort to get this through Congress failed, so there is no MRA at NetJets. As someone else said, we still have pilots in their 70's, much to the chagrin of management.
It's important to point out that NJ management's effort, as outlined in the article, would ONLY have applied to NetJets US, and not to NetJets Europe or to EJM. Thus, it is clear it is about economics and NOT safety.
It's important to point out that NJ management's effort, as outlined in the article, would ONLY have applied to NetJets US, and not to NetJets Europe or to EJM. Thus, it is clear it is about economics and NOT safety.
How convenient…. I’m shocked that NJASAP would support that.. Glad that it didn’t become law for just Netjets, but not everyone else..
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