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own nav 07-06-2012 03:59 PM


Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr (Post 1225680)
The only flights that have paid, employee FOs are the E120s. All the other flights can operate single pilot, so the only FOs we have are the ones who have bought flight time through outside flight school programs.

And before anybody jumps in about "pay for play" and "stealing jobs", it is in our Ops Specs that the commercial FOs can log time so it has been signed off by the FAA. And if they weren't there, no one would, so no one is loosing a job because of them. It's just a chance for new folks who don't want to do flight instructing to get the time required to get a job and do it while getting real world weather and operations experience.

Or from a country where it isn't very reasonable to build flight time in the General Aviation realm (ie Korea).

frmrbuffdrvr 07-06-2012 04:10 PM


Originally Posted by own nav (Post 1225730)
Or from a country where it isn't very reasonable to build flight time in the General Aviation realm (ie Korea).

Sounds like you speak from experience. ;)

Yazzoo 07-06-2012 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr (Post 1225680)
The only flights that have paid, employee FOs are the E120s. All the other flights can operate single pilot, so the only FOs we have are the ones who have bought flight time through outside flight school programs

Don't forget the interns who get paid to be FOs at the end of the internship! Was an SIC on the 1900 and didn't "pay to play" :D

SWAblue 07-06-2012 04:52 PM


Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr (Post 1225680)

And before anybody jumps in about "pay for play" and "stealing jobs", it is in our Ops Specs that the commercial FOs can log time so it has been signed off by the FAA.

I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

frmrbuffdrvr 07-07-2012 03:14 AM


Originally Posted by SWAblue (Post 1225762)
I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

I've never heard of any problems and it's been going on for over 10 years. And at least Korean Air has no problems with it since the folks that come over from their program are guaranteed an interview once they get 1000 total time.

That said, there are other threads where this has been argued out right and left. The point I was making was that other than the E120, we don't have any paid FO positions, which is what I think the gentleman's question was.

SWAblue 07-07-2012 06:12 AM


Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr (Post 1225903)
I've never heard of any problems and it's been going on for over 10 years. And at least Korean Air has no problems with it since the folks that come over from their program are guaranteed an interview once they get 1000 total time.

That said, there are other threads where this has been argued out right and left. The point I was making was that other than the E120, we don't have any paid FO positions, which is what I think the gentleman's question was.

If the question can not be easily answered, then the argument will always continue. ;)

Speaking from someone with inside knowledge, that time would easily be discounted or at least heavily questioned during the interview if discovered during the logbook review.

frmrbuffdrvr 07-07-2012 06:46 AM


Originally Posted by SWAblue (Post 1225951)
If the question can not be easily answered, then the argument will always continue. ;)

Speaking from someone with inside knowledge, that time would easily be discounted or at least heavily questioned during the interview if discovered during the logbook review.

Well, it didn't hurt a guy who did it back in about 2002 then went to Great Lakes and is now at SWA.

ATOP40 07-07-2012 10:16 AM

Good stuff!

SWAblue 07-07-2012 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by frmrbuffdrvr (Post 1225967)
Well, it didn't hurt a guy who did it back in about 2002 then went to Great Lakes and is now at SWA.

They may not have discovered it for all we know. If you would like to take this one example as a sign of certainty then so be it. But I have been witness of 20 hours of sim time mistakenly logged incorrectly being questioned. The applicant addressed the issue appropriately and the discussion resulted in a positive display of his honesty. It could have easily gone the other way.

With that being said, is there a section in your ops specs that a SIC is required for Part 135 cargo operations in your PA31 or BE99?

You can log anything you want. How it is viewed by future employers is another subject matter. Anything interpreted as dishonest will automatically disqualify one from further consideration. Unless I am missing something you have failed to explain in the past few posts, whether or not this has been argued before, you can not legally log second in command time in any operation that does not require the position. Only those who need the time I can imagine would debate this point of well known FAR common sense among professional pilots.

My logbook was not perfect when I was interviewed. But there were no glaring areas to be questioned also.

One may not like this message on the reality of this subject, but the good news is that anything is correctable when honestly done so. Or roll the dice and HOPE it is not a concern for your future.

freightdog 07-07-2012 11:45 AM


Originally Posted by SWAblue (Post 1225762)
I am curious how the "FO" can log the time for a position that does not require a second in command. The FAA may have signed off on the program to sell the time and have someone sitting in the right seat of a cargo operation, but logging the time? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

We have OpSpecs, as do almost everyone else, that allow for lower than standard departures if the have an SIC onboard. Since an SIC is required for lower than standard takeoffs then they can be required to be on onboard for other ops. This has been my best understanding of the regs to this point.


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