PilotGuy69

I agree that any level of experience is a good thing. But if you pay for time, you better get the time in your logbook!! The plain experience is of no benefit when the airlines require hours logged.

The FAA regulates the logging of flight time. What other proof do you need? That is why I say, call the FAA to verify. It's written in black & white in the regulations. And can be confirmed by calling the POI for the operation in question. There are always exceptions, the POI would know of any. But the standard rules in logging SIC time are clear and documented in the FAR's. Read the book by Richie Lengel, "Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot", one of the many documented and well researched books that include topics on logging time.

DO NOT confuse what a pilot will do with what a pilot can do. Many pilots have logged SIC time when they shouldn't. But ultimately what matters is the airline that is looking at your logbook during an interview. They all know the rules the same as the next guy.

As for Key Limes Air's operation, the FAA conducted a formal and specific investigation into the logging of SIC time in their FO program and found that the pilots flying right seat in their FO program could not log the time. You can validate these statements by contacting the investigators whom handled the very investigation. (Dave Purtill & David Cawthra - Spokane FDSO). The investigation included FAA counsel level interpretations of the regulations specific to the operation and duties of those pilots. Yet Key Lime still advertises their FO program. But if you look, nothing in their advertisements say the time is loggable. (http://www.keylimeair.com/FirstOfficer.asp). You get the flight time, but you cannot log it according to the results of the very FAA investigation.

Buyer Beware! There are legitimate timebuilding programs and their are companies that feed off our obsession to fly. Just beware of the scams. Remember the old adage, "If it's too good to be true, than it probably isn't". And read the small print.

And to the author of this thread, call the POI for Ameriflight, ask him if the SIC can log the time, then call the Regional Counsel's office of the FAA and verify the interpretation of the POI, then come back and tell me I was wrong. Because I have yet to see a single shread of evidence that would allow a SIC in a cargo operation flying a SA-227 Metroliner, to log the time in their logbook. Write Michael Yodice - AOPA counsel ([email protected]; ) another expert on the matter. The proof is in the pudding. Take a bite and just stop looking at it.

IC ALL

"There are legitimate time building programs and their are companies that feed off our obsession to fly."

Name one that's legitimate. And explain how it's legal for the legitimate ones to allow the time to be logged while it's not legal with the others.

"The FAA regulates the logging of flight time. What other proof do you need?"

Again, if this is your proof, please explain why you say some time building programs are legit and some aren't.

PilotGuy69

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC ALL

"There are legitimate time building programs and their are companies that feed off our obsession to fly."

I have to ask, are you a pilot with any background in aviation? Because I am shocked that you do not understand the regulations.

Would you encourage a fellow pilot to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a timebuilding program where he/she could not log the time? Because it sounds like you are. Maybe you work for one of these companies???

PW305

If I get a resume with one of these 'right seat' programs it goes in the round file. Next.

IC ALL

"Maybe you work for one of these companies???"

Since you fail to answer the question posed to you, and you come back with the bash, I can only conclude you have no credibility.

But, just for kicks, I'll ask again. You mention there are time building programs that, in your words and your opinion, "are legit". I don't make this stuff up. You said it. I'm asking you for an example of legit time building program and why you consider it's legit?

PilotGuy69

I apologize if you felt I was bashing you, my comments were not meant to bash you. I felt it was odd you press on with questions best answered by reading the whole thread, the regulations and all my many comments and references. But I'll answer your last question anyway.

I think everyone would agree that one good example of a legitimate timebuilding program might be simply renting a C172, as a liensed and qualified pilot, at a discounted timebuiling rate, which many schools around the country offer or might be willing to offer with the current economic conditions, and flying it PIC part 91 for the amount of time you need. Take your friends and enjoy the many $100 burgers that are out there. Spread the wealth if you're wanting to pay cash for the time in your logbook.

But to get back to the original question posed on this subject, I agree that it's best to do a term as a CFI, getting honest hours and experience and not pay for it.

IC ALL

"I think everyone would agree that one good example of a legitimate timebuilding program might be simply renting a C172"

Yeah, uhhh. That's a great example of a time building program....

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Again, you have failed to really prove your point. That would be my opinion. You wanna get your Spokane FSDO buddies to come on here and back you up, I'll be the first one to spread it all over the internet. I mean really, I can do that. As a CFI, an airline pilot, and a mod at this site, I'd be all over it. But you have failed to convince me that you have any credibility in this matter.

By the way, I took your comments to the Amflight thread the last time you spoke up. A couple of them said they disagreed with your opinions on this.

Scott T

I completely understand your frustration; some companies are offering a "shortcut" to future hopefull pilots with large financial strings attached.

However, as I read all this talk of "don't do it" because it "cheapens the playing field" (specifically, contributes to overall lower pilot industry wages), I think that this sounds much like union members from many industries crying foul when their jobs go overseas to lower paid offshore workers. Looking at this from a strictly Darwinian economic viewpoint of raw supply and demand - there are just "too many" pilots for the jobs available. The primary reason is obvious; it is fun to fly.

So, a kid who's parents have $ pays for 500 hours turbine time and gets a job quicker than the kid who has to flight instruct in a 172 for 2 years before jumping up to teach in a twin piston. Life isn't fair and so long as some can afford it, they will pay to get to the goal faster.

Do I think paying for right seat time is right? No. But I don't think that its "wrong" either. If someone can turn a profit selling the right seat, they will do so. And all of our frustration with it will not change it. One member says that he will "circular file" any applications he sees with this type of time. If he is in a hiring position, that's his prerrogative. If not, it is about the same as saying, "If I was President of the US, I'd..."

No matter how much anyone complains, the days of six figure pilot gigs are over. The average American is not willing to pay an extra fifety bucks (much less an extra ten) to raise the salary of an RJ pilot. The average American thinks that pilots make too much $ so long as they don't sit in a cubicle all day long.

Its just supply and demand...