www.eaglejet.net ?
 

I just got my AMEL and was looking to build some time. I was browsing websites and came across Eaglejet.

Does anyone have any experience with these people and their operations? Is is worth spending $20,800 for 250hrs of SIC time in a Shorts-360?

My instructor wants me to get my MEI instead and start teaching first, kind of leaning towards getting the MEI and adding the I, and II later.

Any tips is highly appreciated!

If I where you I would listen to your instructor. You could spend about the same and go to gulfstream...I would not think it would be worth it, you have already spent allot of money on this. I know Key Lime Air has a similar program and I think after you pay your $$ They will pay you min wage to sit right!!!!

are you serious? tell me you are joking? pay $20,000 to sit in the right seat? as in you pay them? are you kidding? if you pay them, why don't i just pay my company, why doesn't a delta 767 captain pay them to have the privilege to fly such an aircraft. if you pay someone else to fly, you are completely devaluing our profession! where did this start? what other job out there, any job, makes you pay to work for someone? this is the most absurd thing i've ever heard. not to mention, in today's economy, $20k is not going to be made up easily. ugghhhh...i can't believe i read such a thing. this is the worst thing you can do for the entire profession, and operations like this place should be shut down. you have a commercial pilots license, which makes you a professional pilot, time to act like one!

and this is what i emailed to the company...

From: EMB145 pilot <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 11:44:36 AM
Subject: Disgusting

Your operation should be shut down. You are everything that is wrong with aviation. Charging pilots to work for you is absurd! What other industry charges its employees to work for them? The only thing more disgusting is the pilots that actually pay for this bull****. You are preying on innocent and naive people, and truthfully, I don’t know how any of you sleep at night. Your operation shouldn’t exist, and I hope your business fails miserably!



EMB145 Pilot

Chill out flyinaway411, I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I understand that you value your job as a pilot very highly and that paying someone to gain experience is a no-no according to your beliefs.

I am not paying to work for them, I am paying them to log the occasional PIC time. They also have PIC time for Twin Otters. Take the time to read what their programs offer. I know this is not the way most people would go about aquiring experience, and neither am I. I was merely curious to see if anyone had any experience with these folks.

i actually did read the description, in detail. and unless i'm missing something, your paying a lot of money for flight time, bottom line. and its not just my beliefs, its the beliefs of most pilots out there. truly not worth it. don't ***** yourself out

I agree, that should be a paid position not some way to scam money out of you to increas there profits. There are other places that would charge less for you to build time in a semonole or an aztec, no you would not be flying with an airline but you would be building time for less $$$. I could try to find the place that does that and send you the info.

Extremely well said.

I think the sentiment that flyinaway is trying to convey is that there is no place for this in aviation... period. Just because one might be able to find Company B that only charges half of what Company A does to sit right seat and build experience doesn't mean it's a better deal. It's a bad deal no matter what the price. The problem is that as long as pilots are willing to shell out thousands or tens-of-thousands of dollars to companies like this to "build experience", then there will always be companies that do this. If a company has to use this sort of "pay for experience" model in order to make money, then I submit that their business plan is flawed.

Operating aircraft in a commercial venture costs money. PAYING pilots to do their job is part of that cost. These costs must be passed along to the customer. If the customer doesn't want to pay what it costs then they can find another, less expensive (and usually less efficient) way. If the operator can't find enough business to support the venture then they should probably find another line of business. It would serve the commercial aviation world well if there was a thinning of the operator ranks, with a resulting drop in overall capacity. This would allow the remaining operators to re-adjust what the paying public views as an acceptable rate and which more accurately represents the cost of doing business.

Oil was closing in on the $150 a barrel mark over the summer. Jet fuel prices were through the roof and the airlines were taking it in the shorts on operating costs. Consumers were feeling the pain at the pump as well, yet for some reason they thought they should still be able to get that $39 fare from Seattle to Miami. To make matters worse... the airlines were giving it to them. The phrase "We're losing money, but we're making up for it in volume" never rang so true. :cool:

One of the eaglejet programs places guys in the right seat of a B99 at Amflight. It's not taking anyones job away and you're not "working for free" cause you're not really "working". The plane can go without you, and normally it does. In fact, you can be bumped for freight.

Is this time valuable? Maybe a little bit under certain circumstances. But I'd put time as a CFI as more valuable, and right seat timebuilding programs shouldn't be a substitue for that. Certainly, 250 hours is way overkill and not necessary.

I agree that nobody should ever work for free. It's not good for the profession and gives management bad ideas. My test for these things is "can the airplane go without me". If the answer is yes, then you're hardly taking a job away from anyone. If the answer is no, then you should be paid.

Somebody will say "well, how can you log the time if you're not a required crewmember". That's a good question for eaglejet. But I believe Amflight has something in their ops specs that allows these guys to log the time. I know they have been doing this program for years.

If I were the man who got to weigh in on a hiring, ANYONE that has paid for a right seat job does not get the job. Period. However; I am far from being that man, it just makes me sad.

I have never paid for time building.... period.... and I took the long road... I ran out of money when it came time to do the cfi thing so I up and moved to fly wx mod and from there I was hired into the right seat to fly freight around the caribbean.... furloughed there.... went and flew pipeline back in TX for a while and recently was hired by colgan..... there is absolutely no reason to pay for time.... none whatsoever... like others have said before..... you are a commercial pilot... you need to be paid for your time and effort to earn that certificate. End of story.

Don't even think twice about paying for time. I've been instructing for just less than a year and I have over 500 me time. Granted it's only seminole time but me time is me time. You will learn so much more being an instructor and confidence will go through the roof. There are plenty of schools that use small twins that you can instruct at.

question
 

JSDL, where do you teach?

Very well put, and if I might add my own .02. You're absolutely right about AMF, they can and will operate without FO's on the BE99. The main advantage is that you're going to learn more about flying hard IFR from a freight dog than you will from a CFII with 5 hours of actual instrument.

It is in the ops specs for reduced takeoff minimums, and you could also rationalize that it allows for "two crew" rest requirements. No FO, no problem, if you can help, that's great.

The biggest thing I have a problem with is FO's logging PIC time. The regs clearly state that you have to have privledges in addition to the rating. Under part 135, you only have privledges as an SIC. If eaglejet is advertising that you can get all your time as PIC, they should be repremended.

All in all, true time on the job is best, and many companies have a list of complaints about FO's who come out of these programs who didn't learn a dang thing.

Can I just ask a question? What about the guys who just want to get out of here. I started at AmEagle and jumped over to Republic only to get furloughed 7 months later. Now I have 2 SIC types, 1150 TT and practically zero Options. I just want to get enough time to get out of here. Go to China or Japan or something. So what now? just sit here and wait for three years for the economy to turn around... Flip burgers? Im not going to move just to become a flight instructor again. THAT IS A COST IN AND OF ITS SELF. Im just currious cuz i feel like im at the end of my freakin rope here. I need to fly.

Time Building
 

Beware of the Time Building scams that are out there. If you're flying right seat carrying cargo, the time is NOT loggable unless the aircraft requires two pilots. 14CFR Part 61.51(f).

Tell you what men, I believe the Shorts 360 requires a two man crew to operate. And if you are paying to occupy one of those seats, you are simply paying someone to have the privilege of working for them. Simple as that. And besides, those 250 hours that you buy will not get you far in this day and age when you have thousands of guys with thousands of hours to compete against. Listen to your instructor and remember in this game, it's all about patience my friend, patience!

Instead of paying 20K to fly a Shorts, go to ACC...THEY PAY YOU 25K, and you get benefits. How can some companies compete when other companies have pilots paying them large amounts of money? No wonder why we get paid what we do. "Your cargo will be there by tomorrow, the price is free today, our new FO agreed to pay for it; I hope you choose us again, thank you."

I wonder who will start the first cargo company to have all pilots, captains and FOs, pay them. You know they would have hundreds of applications.

Air,

I signed on for a similar program. After researching it, and listening to the advice of experienced individuals on this site, I cut bait. I see Fly's point now. Why the hell would any company ever compensate you fairly if there are individuals willing to pay for the same position. That sort of thing is exactly why RJ FO's are making 16k a year. Fly your e-mail was quite relevant and very enlightening. That said, Air, in no way am I chastising you for considering this program, I lost a large deposit after signing up for essentially the same thing. Just damn glad I didn't lose the total program cost. Best of luck and, even if you have the money to do something like this, I think it will be detrimental in the long run because inevitably it will affect, in some way, how you are compensated down the road. I now realize why folks here are so adamant about the operation of these programs.

Pretty much said, I'm just posting to add my support of it. Don't Do It!

Pay for something useful
 

If you have to pay for something, pay for something useful. If I had $20,000 and needed the time, I would pay for a CFI, CFII, MEI and an small airplane with an N number that burns about 4 gph! Then instruct as much as possible, and go fly an hour whenever I have 18 or 20 bucks!

well said, i agree... i have been working as a CFI in texas for about a year and a half. havent had any movent at our school in a while, and recent graduates and furloughs alike constantly come in looking for work. we cant hire unless someone quits (which is unlikely still), therefore these guys offer their services for less. devaluing and undercutting. there is another 135 company out of the dallas area GTAAir.com that offers a pay-for-time building program.
i've heard a few students talk about going up there and getting even farther in debt... I imagine those goon companies make their PICs stay currents as MEIs so they can log it as instruction also. but nevertheless, i give them the same lecture

Ops Specs trump Part 61. In the case of Ops Specs, they are the regs for that operator and, gasp!, FAA Approved, thus the single pilot aeroplane becomes a two pilot aeroplane. The FAA treats it no differently than 600 RVR takeoff mins, as gasp!, those FAA Approved mins are lower than what part 91 allows.

OMFG, regulations might be different for a part 121 or 135 operator, whoda thought that?

:rolleyes:

Setting aside the histrionics from the folks who hate the pay-for-SIC-time concept, experience and MEL PIC time gained as an CFI-AME will be more valuable in the long run. But to do career-dignificant ME instruction, you'll need CFI-IA qualifications.

Time building programs
 

FYI to the person who recommended Key Lime Air.... Key Lime Air's FO program is not loggable time. Running cargo in a Metroliner as an SIC does not fit the bill for logging flight time. If you look at their website, you will never see the word loggable. But be warned that by telephone, they may tell you otherwise, to mislead you and get your money. All you gain is experience and cannot log a single hour. (FAR 61.51(f)).

:eek: Yes Jedinein, the Ops Specs become part of the FAR's for that particular airline, but don't mislead the reader. Ask any FAA inspector with a brain and you will find that in the example I meant to point out, flying cargo (the operation) in an aircraft that does not require more than one pilot (by it's complexity - like the metroliner) is not loggable flight time. Even if the OpSpecs may have a takeoff minimum exception where under rare and certain circumstances the airline is obligated to fly two pilots on that very paticular flight. But the actual conditions must meet the particular OpSpec for the time to be loggable by the SIC.

I say, any pilot looking to build time at substantial cost, DO YOUR RESEARCH, be 100% sure your time is loggable or burn your money instead. Call the POI (Principal Operations Inspector) for the company you plan on doing time building and ask them.

Time Building Programs
 

There are many scams out there. Be cautious!!. You're trying to build time, correct? Make sure the time is legally loggable. Understand FAR 61.51(f). Call the FDSO and speak with the POI about the paticular company you'll be flying for. Make sure you will be a required crewmember on the flights or the time does not count and cannot go in your logbook.

The key is: Does the operation require two pilots? Cargo is typically a no, passenger operations is typically a yes. Or, does the aircrafts complexity require two pilots? A C172 is a no, a B747 is a yes.

I would agree with your instructor, unless you're very rich, do your timebuilding as a CFI, the airlines prefer that anyway. Goodluck! :)

Cry me a river. I got hired at a 121 company only to then have my class cancelled. I quit a perfectly good job to go to the airlines and then I had to get my cfi and instruct. Now I'm not instructing but still in a 172. You've got to build time somehow and right now it doesn't sound like you'll be doing it at the airlines. Specially with how much PIC time you have. You've got to get it out of your head that you're too good for instructing, because if you think you are now that you've flown a jet I'll remind you there are many other people willing to take the job you don't want with more time than you.

You don't even have enough time to do a 135 op so how have you even put in your dues to aviation as everyone says. Imagine if airlines didn't hire till 2500 hrs you wouldn't even have your types and you wouldn't be wining now. I don't even know what to say to you. It sounds like you haven't tried much of anything besides the airlines.

As far as the pft thing for 250 hrs, even if you have 500 tt and 250 me turbine you'll still have a hard time competing against said guy above with two types and 1150. GL

"Ops Specs become part of the FAR's for that particular airline, but don't mislead the reader."

Who's misleading the reader? I have no contacts at Key Lime, but my sources at Amflight say there have been no changes to their "PFT" scheme, which EagleJet sells.

PilotGuy69 offers no proof of his claims other than "contact the FAA". He'll need to do better than that here to prove his opinion is a fact.

Go over to an Amflight thread and ask them if their ride along F/O's can log the time? If they back Pilotguy up, then I might give his opinion a shred of credibility. But until then, I simply think he's wrong and has shown no proof for his claims.

I'm no fan of PFT schemes as a substitute for traditional methods of time building. But I think a small amount of this type of experience could be beneficial in some circumstances if the person can afford it without going into debt. In any case, there has never been any doubt in my mind that Amflight figured out an FAA approved way to make the time legal to log. Otherwise, the program would be useless.

Logging SIC time in Cargo Operations
 

"There are legitimate time building programs and their are companies that feed off our obsession to fly."

Name one that's legitimate. And explain how it's legal for the legitimate ones to allow the time to be logged while it's not legal with the others.

"The FAA regulates the logging of flight time. What other proof do you need?"

Again, if this is your proof, please explain why you say some time building programs are legit and some aren't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IC ALL (Post 753904)

"There are legitimate time building programs and their are companies that feed off our obsession to fly."

---

I have to ask, are you a pilot with any background in aviation? Because I am shocked that you do not understand the regulations. :eek:

Would you encourage a fellow pilot to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a timebuilding program where he/she could not log the time? Because it sounds like you are. Maybe you work for one of these companies???

If I get a resume with one of these 'right seat' programs it goes in the round file. Next.

"Maybe you work for one of these companies???"

Since you fail to answer the question posed to you, and you come back with the bash, I can only conclude you have no credibility.

But, just for kicks, I'll ask again. You mention there are time building programs that, in your words and your opinion, "are legit". I don't make this stuff up. You said it. I'm asking you for an example of legit time building program and why you consider it's legit?

I apologize if you felt I was bashing you, my comments were not meant to bash you. I felt it was odd you press on with questions best answered by reading the whole thread, the regulations and all my many comments and references. But I'll answer your last question anyway.

I think everyone would agree that one good example of a legitimate timebuilding program might be simply renting a C172, as a liensed and qualified pilot, at a discounted timebuiling rate, which many schools around the country offer or might be willing to offer with the current economic conditions, and flying it PIC part 91 for the amount of time you need. Take your friends and enjoy the many $100 burgers that are out there. Spread the wealth if you're wanting to pay cash for the time in your logbook.

But to get back to the original question posed on this subject, I agree that it's best to do a term as a CFI, getting honest hours and experience and not pay for it. :)

"I think everyone would agree that one good example of a legitimate timebuilding program might be simply renting a C172"

Yeah, uhhh. That's a great example of a time building program....

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Again, you have failed to really prove your point. That would be my opinion. You wanna get your Spokane FSDO buddies to come on here and back you up, I'll be the first one to spread it all over the internet. I mean really, I can do that. As a CFI, an airline pilot, and a mod at this site, I'd be all over it. But you have failed to convince me that you have any credibility in this matter.

By the way, I took your comments to the Amflight thread the last time you spoke up. A couple of them said they disagreed with your opinions on this.

sounds like Union talk
 

I completely understand your frustration; some companies are offering a "shortcut" to future hopefull pilots with large financial strings attached.

However, as I read all this talk of "don't do it" because it "cheapens the playing field" (specifically, contributes to overall lower pilot industry wages), I think that this sounds much like union members from many industries crying foul when their jobs go overseas to lower paid offshore workers. Looking at this from a strictly Darwinian economic viewpoint of raw supply and demand - there are just "too many" pilots for the jobs available. The primary reason is obvious; it is fun to fly.

So, a kid who's parents have $ pays for 500 hours turbine time and gets a job quicker than the kid who has to flight instruct in a 172 for 2 years before jumping up to teach in a twin piston. Life isn't fair and so long as some can afford it, they will pay to get to the goal faster.

Do I think paying for right seat time is right? No. But I don't think that its "wrong" either. If someone can turn a profit selling the right seat, they will do so. And all of our frustration with it will not change it. One member says that he will "circular file" any applications he sees with this type of time. If he is in a hiring position, that's his prerrogative. If not, it is about the same as saying, "If I was President of the US, I'd..."

No matter how much anyone complains, the days of six figure pilot gigs are over. The average American is not willing to pay an extra fifety bucks (much less an extra ten) to raise the salary of an RJ pilot. The average American thinks that pilots make too much $ so long as they don't sit in a cubicle all day long.

Its just supply and demand...