Help on how to survive as SIC
05-19-2009, 05:07 PM
#11
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by LastTraintoMEM
Might not be a bad idea.
Another bit of advice: The aviation world is small, and reputations get around. I remember getting that winced look from more than one hiring chief pilot when I was interviewing and told them where I worked. The "guilt by association" factor can cost you a job.
Another bit of advice: The aviation world is small, and reputations get around. I remember getting that winced look from more than one hiring chief pilot when I was interviewing and told them where I worked. The "guilt by association" factor can cost you a job.
05-19-2009, 05:17 PM
#12
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by INTERNET PILOT
I feel your pain. My last company had 4 captains who were totally cool, and one captain who was a total douche bag. This guy had the attitude that "I'm the captain therefore I know everything, you're the FO therefore you know nothing", when in reality it was kind of the other way around. He would go out of his way to make my life miserable. He always acted like he was the only person on board that could do anything right. For instance he'd tell me to do the landing weight/distance calculations. After I do the calculations and tell him my results, he'd almost always quip back, without even thinking "THATS WRONG, do them again". He's not doing this because he thinks it'll be better for the safety of the flight. He's doing it to drawl attention to the fact that he has power and I don't. This kind of crap gets old after a while. Eventually I figured him out though. He himself was very unknowledgable when it came to many things. He was very unconfortable with icing, flying in IMC, heck even talking with ATC. His "tough guy" attitude was to cover up his vulnerabilities. He was afraid that if he admitted to not knowing something, I'l lose all respect for him. So he made damn well sure that I had the impression of him as being a real tough decissive guy who doesn't let anything pass. But it didn't work because I could see right through it.
I have a feeling that in my long career in aviation that lies ahead of me, I'm going to run into a large percentage of captains who have this "I need to beat these four bars over my FO's head or else they won't respect me because I suck at flying" attitudes. It sucks but what are you going to do?
I have a feeling that in my long career in aviation that lies ahead of me, I'm going to run into a large percentage of captains who have this "I need to beat these four bars over my FO's head or else they won't respect me because I suck at flying" attitudes. It sucks but what are you going to do?
Just like the airlines many years ago before the development of the CRM in the cockpit.
I think that if we start talking about the problem, it could be a start, and maybe exposing some names, because I tell you, I will avoid companies like that from now on, no matter what.
On the interview you could not ask if you are going to fly with sychos.
Do you know what I mean?
05-20-2009, 04:32 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: G280- Captain
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by INTERNET PILOT
I feel your pain. My last company had 4 captains who were totally cool, and one captain who was a total douche bag. This guy had the attitude that "I'm the captain therefore I know everything, you're the FO therefore you know nothing", when in reality it was kind of the other way around. He would go out of his way to make my life miserable. He always acted like he was the only person on board that could do anything right. For instance he'd tell me to do the landing weight/distance calculations. After I do the calculations and tell him my results, he'd almost always quip back, without even thinking "THATS WRONG, do them again". He's not doing this because he thinks it'll be better for the safety of the flight. He's doing it to drawl attention to the fact that he has power and I don't. This kind of crap gets old after a while. Eventually I figured him out though. He himself was very unknowledgable when it came to many things. He was very unconfortable with icing, flying in IMC, heck even talking with ATC. His "tough guy" attitude was to cover up his vulnerabilities. He was afraid that if he admitted to not knowing something, I'l lose all respect for him. So he made damn well sure that I had the impression of him as being a real tough decissive guy who doesn't let anything pass. But it didn't work because I could see right through it.
I have a feeling that in my long career in aviation that lies ahead of me, I'm going to run into a large percentage of captains who have this "I need to beat these four bars over my FO's head or else they won't respect me because I suck at flying" attitudes. It sucks but what are you going to do?
I have a feeling that in my long career in aviation that lies ahead of me, I'm going to run into a large percentage of captains who have this "I need to beat these four bars over my FO's head or else they won't respect me because I suck at flying" attitudes. It sucks but what are you going to do?
Nail on the Head! I noticed this too. The jerks were always the worst pilots. To me it was a major safety issue. You are flying with someone who is not good at what he does, and you will get jumped if you point out something he missed. I remember asking one Capt. if he wanted the gear down after he forgot the call at the marker. The rant went on from that point until engine shut down. Sad thing, management knew about him, everyone warned me about him, yet they wouldn't get rid of him.
05-20-2009, 04:41 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: G280- Captain
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by airdett
It seems that this problem is more frequent than I thought.
Just like the airlines many years ago before the development of the CRM in the cockpit.
I think that if we start talking about the problem, it could be a start, and maybe exposing some names, because I tell you, I will avoid companies like that from now on, no matter what.
On the interview you could not ask if you are going to fly with sychos.
Do you know what I mean?
Just like the airlines many years ago before the development of the CRM in the cockpit.
I think that if we start talking about the problem, it could be a start, and maybe exposing some names, because I tell you, I will avoid companies like that from now on, no matter what.
On the interview you could not ask if you are going to fly with sychos.
Do you know what I mean?
If you look around on this forum, you will see a lot of info on who not to fly for. Companies would never tell you about the psychos up front. You always find out about them once you get to where ever you are based. Occasionally, you will find out about a real bad one in initial ground school.
05-20-2009, 05:01 AM
#15
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by airdett
Dear pilots.
I am asking for some advise on how to deal with captains that have really bad attitudes.
Showing off (hey, look what I can do!), not following the rules, deviating from clearances, and when they were questioned, a bad answer was always followed, together with some attitude.
Not to mention making the flights a lot harder, because everybody had their own way to fly, not the standard from Simuflite.
.
I am asking for some advise on how to deal with captains that have really bad attitudes.
Showing off (hey, look what I can do!), not following the rules, deviating from clearances, and when they were questioned, a bad answer was always followed, together with some attitude.
Not to mention making the flights a lot harder, because everybody had their own way to fly, not the standard from Simuflite.
.
05-20-2009, 07:20 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,899
Unfortunately, I have been in your shoes before. It was at my last 135 job... All of the CAs I flew with were great, except one. As luck would have it, I almost always had to fly with the dick. He would do whatever he could to demean me in the air, and even in the FBOs. Bragging about his money, insisting on eating at the most expensive restaurants, belittling me in front of people in the FBO if I mentioned the $70/plate French restaurant was too expensive, etc.
Here's what I quickly found out - guys like this are VERY insecure. He was easily the worst pilot I've ever flown with. I would typically hand fly the airplane all the way until cruise, then again from the descent all the way down. We had kind of a crappy autopilot, so it was just easier that way. He ALWAYS struggled to make our crappy autopilot do the job, and in the rare case that he hit the red button, it was all he could do to hold heading and altitude. At the time, I was still instructing and had student pilots that could do a better job. Being a king air, you have to be pretty inept to do a bad job hand flying such a great airplane.
He would constantly rip on how I talked on the radio. I'm very big into standard phraseology, and everybody else I flew with never said a word. He would insist on using non-standard phraseology (with you, checking on, etc.). What it came down to is he ripped on my radio phraseology based upon his style rather than the content, which is just wrong.
Another time he was telling me that I should falsify my logbook. I told him it was a matter of pride and honor to me that every hour in my logbook was earned. He told me I was being stupid, and that he'd show me how to do it without being caught! Went on to tell me he did it all the time. Wow.
The worst incident occurred when we were flying back from GA one day during the summer. There was a stationary front kicking up some boomers across FL, but we could pick through it easily enough with our radar. It required some skill, but was definitely VERY doable. We had 2 pax in the back. About 70 mi north of CRG, ATC gave us a re-route that would put us through some nasty stuff. About the same time, we encountered some moderate icing. Being a king air, it was not a big deal. Unfortunately, he literally flipped out! He started yelling about ATC and was freaking out about the ice. I had to tell him to calm down, pop the boots, turn on the prop heats, and I told him we just needed to formulate a new plan with ATC, even if it included diverting. Finally dipwad calms down and we diverted to CRG. About 2 hrs later the worst of the weather was over, but he was terrified of going back out again since there was still some yellow showing on the Nexrad (the storm trend was clearly dissipating). We ended up staying the night, with him trying to justify his decision to me (and himself) the ENTIRE time. I just wanted to drink some beer and relax, I didn't care!!
On another trip, he was flying with another SIC since I was flying another trip. They were coming back from VA and had to pass a cold front kicking up a nasty line of T-storms across the GA/FL border. He disregarded advice from ATC about a hole that everybody was using, which also matched what the onboard radar presented. Why? Because his freaking 396 Nexrad radar indicated something different. Using his personal (not company provided) Garmin 396, he bumbled right into a strong T-storm that kicked the hell out of them, scared the ******* out of the SIC and the OWNERS of the airplane sitting in the back. Plus they got hit my lightning. To top it off, he thought they were going to run out of fuel and changed his destination three times before finally stretching it and making it to the original destination (apparently Miami center was wondering just *** was going on by that point). Amazingly, he was not fired for these multiple acts of stupidity. The SIC that flew with him that day told our chief pilot that he will NEVER fly another trip with that CA again, and he never did. Unfortunately for me, it just meant I had to fly with him even more.
There's so much else that I could tell you about too. He was finally canned a few months ago, so hopefully that's it for him.
I attempted to convey my concerns to him about his attitude several times, and I literally did have to file a NASA report after he screwed us so bad on an approach one day that we got yelled at by an approach controller. Eventually I had to bring the situation up to the chief pilot, as my once fun, cool job had become hell for me.
Now that he doesn't have a job, he frequently asks me if I can get him a job at my company. Unfreaking believable.
Here's what I quickly found out - guys like this are VERY insecure. He was easily the worst pilot I've ever flown with. I would typically hand fly the airplane all the way until cruise, then again from the descent all the way down. We had kind of a crappy autopilot, so it was just easier that way. He ALWAYS struggled to make our crappy autopilot do the job, and in the rare case that he hit the red button, it was all he could do to hold heading and altitude. At the time, I was still instructing and had student pilots that could do a better job. Being a king air, you have to be pretty inept to do a bad job hand flying such a great airplane.
He would constantly rip on how I talked on the radio. I'm very big into standard phraseology, and everybody else I flew with never said a word. He would insist on using non-standard phraseology (with you, checking on, etc.). What it came down to is he ripped on my radio phraseology based upon his style rather than the content, which is just wrong.
Another time he was telling me that I should falsify my logbook. I told him it was a matter of pride and honor to me that every hour in my logbook was earned. He told me I was being stupid, and that he'd show me how to do it without being caught! Went on to tell me he did it all the time. Wow.
The worst incident occurred when we were flying back from GA one day during the summer. There was a stationary front kicking up some boomers across FL, but we could pick through it easily enough with our radar. It required some skill, but was definitely VERY doable. We had 2 pax in the back. About 70 mi north of CRG, ATC gave us a re-route that would put us through some nasty stuff. About the same time, we encountered some moderate icing. Being a king air, it was not a big deal. Unfortunately, he literally flipped out! He started yelling about ATC and was freaking out about the ice. I had to tell him to calm down, pop the boots, turn on the prop heats, and I told him we just needed to formulate a new plan with ATC, even if it included diverting. Finally dipwad calms down and we diverted to CRG. About 2 hrs later the worst of the weather was over, but he was terrified of going back out again since there was still some yellow showing on the Nexrad (the storm trend was clearly dissipating). We ended up staying the night, with him trying to justify his decision to me (and himself) the ENTIRE time. I just wanted to drink some beer and relax, I didn't care!!
On another trip, he was flying with another SIC since I was flying another trip. They were coming back from VA and had to pass a cold front kicking up a nasty line of T-storms across the GA/FL border. He disregarded advice from ATC about a hole that everybody was using, which also matched what the onboard radar presented. Why? Because his freaking 396 Nexrad radar indicated something different. Using his personal (not company provided) Garmin 396, he bumbled right into a strong T-storm that kicked the hell out of them, scared the ******* out of the SIC and the OWNERS of the airplane sitting in the back. Plus they got hit my lightning. To top it off, he thought they were going to run out of fuel and changed his destination three times before finally stretching it and making it to the original destination (apparently Miami center was wondering just *** was going on by that point). Amazingly, he was not fired for these multiple acts of stupidity. The SIC that flew with him that day told our chief pilot that he will NEVER fly another trip with that CA again, and he never did. Unfortunately for me, it just meant I had to fly with him even more.
There's so much else that I could tell you about too. He was finally canned a few months ago, so hopefully that's it for him.
I attempted to convey my concerns to him about his attitude several times, and I literally did have to file a NASA report after he screwed us so bad on an approach one day that we got yelled at by an approach controller. Eventually I had to bring the situation up to the chief pilot, as my once fun, cool job had become hell for me.
Now that he doesn't have a job, he frequently asks me if I can get him a job at my company. Unfreaking believable.
05-20-2009, 07:34 AM
#17
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 23
WRXPILOT
I think that this captain you just mentioned, got his job knowing someone in the company.
Unfortunatelly, that's the way it is, people get hired based on friendship, not proficiency or professionalism in a lot of cases.
I think that this captain you just mentioned, got his job knowing someone in the company.
Unfortunatelly, that's the way it is, people get hired based on friendship, not proficiency or professionalism in a lot of cases.
05-20-2009, 07:45 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by airdett
WRXPILOT
I think that this captain you just mentioned, got his job knowing someone in the company.
Unfortunatelly, that's the way it is, people get hired based on friendship, not proficiency or professionalism in a lot of cases.
I think that this captain you just mentioned, got his job knowing someone in the company.
Unfortunatelly, that's the way it is, people get hired based on friendship, not proficiency or professionalism in a lot of cases.
Last edited by wrxpilot; 05-20-2009 at 11:17 AM.
05-20-2009, 05:26 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
Back about 6 years ago I remember and incident at my local uncontrolled field that just blew me away. There I was in a 152 ready for takeoff. My student dutifully doing his clearing turn. The pattern was jam packed. The guy behind us, the captain of a Citation yells at us on the CTAF saying "you gonna go or sit there spinnin ballarena bells on the taxiway!" I was beside myself. There were 2 guys on final and one on short. This guy pulls around us as we were #1 at the bars and pulls right out onto the runway making the guy on final go around. I proceed to say "do you know how to wait your turn or what". This understatement caused him to just explode on the mic. something to the effect of "Your $#@%$# ballarena routine is holding up the show you mother%$#^&*" I kid you knot. Yea he had the uniform on and all that.
I missed his full tail #, he was just to fast. As I departed I switched to departure to try to get his full # but nothing. Anyway, at the time I had no knowledge of flight tracking software but the scarry part is this. The next morning I found a message on my voice from him! He was profusely apologising for his behavior! How did this guy get my phone #. Now that's scarry stuff.
Did I call him back? No I did not. I did not think it would get me any closer to getting him fired. Now I regret not doing more to try to ruin this guys career as best I could.
Cheers
btw. Get a loan and start your own charter biz. If you have the market at your airport it might be the way to go. Not to many have the balls to do this so there is some niche still out there.
I missed his full tail #, he was just to fast. As I departed I switched to departure to try to get his full # but nothing. Anyway, at the time I had no knowledge of flight tracking software but the scarry part is this. The next morning I found a message on my voice from him! He was profusely apologising for his behavior! How did this guy get my phone #. Now that's scarry stuff.
Did I call him back? No I did not. I did not think it would get me any closer to getting him fired. Now I regret not doing more to try to ruin this guys career as best I could.
Cheers
btw. Get a loan and start your own charter biz. If you have the market at your airport it might be the way to go. Not to many have the balls to do this so there is some niche still out there.
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