Air Attack/Air Tankers/SEAT/Fire Boss
#101
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 99
I have asked for clarification on this, and was told that it's required. They want people committed to the role and career rather than getting their hrs/turbine time and leaving.
This was a few years ago..... But still shows up in every posting.
This was a few years ago..... But still shows up in every posting.
#102
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
Firefighting is not an entry level job. Airlines are entry level jobs.
Government vacancy announcements are not flexible. The requirements set forth are minimums, and are frequently written for a specific candidate, and made public only for legal reasons. They're not reviewed initially by those with any subject matter experience.
Many years ago I applied for a position, and was told that my application was rejected for lack of wildland firefighting experience. I pointed to several prior jobs, and asked, "what do you think I was doing in that C-130, where it said, "fighting fire?" I was told, "but it doesn't say 'wildland firefighting experience.'" The person reviewing it didn't even know what a C-130 was, or an air tanker. Their only job was to look at the words and see if they matched the vacancy announcement exactly.
No, it's not a time building job. The amount of flying you'll do won't be remotely adequate, if your goal is to "build time." These are the kinds of jobs you gain experience for, as your goal, not stepping stones to get somewhere else. There's very little movement in aerial fire.
The air attack positions are seasonal, and those are sometimes staffed by long-time pilots who have flown air attack for a decade or two. They're sometimes filled by those who are only there for a short time. They're often filled by those who are seeking to move into other firefighting positions, and use the air attack job as an entry level.
Once you get to a government position, you're probably there for the long haul (long time; career, as opposed to long haul/long distance. Most fire work involves fairly short flights to and from a fire, with some longer re-positioning flights at times. Not much long-distance or cross country/enroute type flying, not much flying under IFR).
#103
Good point about the verbatim job requirements. My dad worked civilian (unrelated to aviation) federal government. He told people things had to match letter for letter, keystroke for keystroke. This is with manual typewriters. If you missed a period or put an extra space in between words, things got rejected.
#104
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 99
Asked for clarification on what? What shows up in every posting? Postings about what?
Firefighting is not an entry level job. Airlines are entry level jobs.
Government vacancy announcements are not flexible. The requirements set forth are minimums, and are frequently written for a specific candidate, and made public only for legal reasons. They're not reviewed initially by those with any subject matter experience.
Many years ago I applied for a position, and was told that my application was rejected for lack of wildland firefighting experience. I pointed to several prior jobs, and asked, "what do you think I was doing in that C-130, where it said, "fighting fire?" I was told, "but it doesn't say 'wildland firefighting experience.'" The person reviewing it didn't even know what a C-130 was, or an air tanker. Their only job was to look at the words and see if they matched the vacancy announcement exactly.
No, it's not a time building job. The amount of flying you'll do won't be remotely adequate, if your goal is to "build time." These are the kinds of jobs you gain experience for, as your goal, not stepping stones to get somewhere else. There's very little movement in aerial fire.
The air attack positions are seasonal, and those are sometimes staffed by long-time pilots who have flown air attack for a decade or two. They're sometimes filled by those who are only there for a short time. They're often filled by those who are seeking to move into other firefighting positions, and use the air attack job as an entry level.
Once you get to a government position, you're probably there for the long haul (long time; career, as opposed to long haul/long distance. Most fire work involves fairly short flights to and from a fire, with some longer re-positioning flights at times. Not much long-distance or cross country/enroute type flying, not much flying under IFR).
Firefighting is not an entry level job. Airlines are entry level jobs.
Government vacancy announcements are not flexible. The requirements set forth are minimums, and are frequently written for a specific candidate, and made public only for legal reasons. They're not reviewed initially by those with any subject matter experience.
Many years ago I applied for a position, and was told that my application was rejected for lack of wildland firefighting experience. I pointed to several prior jobs, and asked, "what do you think I was doing in that C-130, where it said, "fighting fire?" I was told, "but it doesn't say 'wildland firefighting experience.'" The person reviewing it didn't even know what a C-130 was, or an air tanker. Their only job was to look at the words and see if they matched the vacancy announcement exactly.
No, it's not a time building job. The amount of flying you'll do won't be remotely adequate, if your goal is to "build time." These are the kinds of jobs you gain experience for, as your goal, not stepping stones to get somewhere else. There's very little movement in aerial fire.
The air attack positions are seasonal, and those are sometimes staffed by long-time pilots who have flown air attack for a decade or two. They're sometimes filled by those who are only there for a short time. They're often filled by those who are seeking to move into other firefighting positions, and use the air attack job as an entry level.
Once you get to a government position, you're probably there for the long haul (long time; career, as opposed to long haul/long distance. Most fire work involves fairly short flights to and from a fire, with some longer re-positioning flights at times. Not much long-distance or cross country/enroute type flying, not much flying under IFR).
I then asked how one could accomplish that while maintaining a full time pilot job.
Answer" well, any way you can to get that 90 days.
Options I threw out were, sign up for an entry-level wildland gig in the summer while you take a break from flying, get on with a FS contractor that does firefighting/ lead plane with aircraft, or volunteer at your local/dual vfd and hope you are available during a big fire so you can start counting the 90 days..... (College credits in wildland fire wouldn't meet this requirement)
These were all deemed to be acceptable by the recruiter.
sorry if my first post offended you John. Just trying to shed some light on the process for other that might be wondering about that requirement and considering their options while looking for a job.
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 266
I merely asked why every govt fire pilot job had the requirements for 90 days on the line in wildlnd fire, and how to meet this requirement if you already were established in a pilot career. The answer from a current FS pilot recruiter was, "this was added in the 2000s because too pilots were coming here to get their "time" so they would qualify for the airlines, then leave".
I then asked how one could accomplish that while maintaining a full time pilot job.
Answer" well, any way you can to get that 90 days.
Options I threw out were, sign up for an entry-level wildland gig in the summer while you take a break from flying, get on with a FS contractor that does firefighting/ lead plane with aircraft, or volunteer at your local/dual vfd and hope you are available during a big fire so you can start counting the 90 days..... (College credits in wildland fire wouldn't meet this requirement)
These were all deemed to be acceptable by the recruiter.
sorry if my first post offended you John. Just trying to shed some light on the process for other that might be wondering about that requirement and considering their options while looking for a job.
I then asked how one could accomplish that while maintaining a full time pilot job.
Answer" well, any way you can to get that 90 days.
Options I threw out were, sign up for an entry-level wildland gig in the summer while you take a break from flying, get on with a FS contractor that does firefighting/ lead plane with aircraft, or volunteer at your local/dual vfd and hope you are available during a big fire so you can start counting the 90 days..... (College credits in wildland fire wouldn't meet this requirement)
These were all deemed to be acceptable by the recruiter.
sorry if my first post offended you John. Just trying to shed some light on the process for other that might be wondering about that requirement and considering their options while looking for a job.
#106
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
Speaking from several decades of experience on the subject is not "chirping." Should you care to contribute the same, give it a shot. I'd love to hear it.
I merely asked why every govt fire pilot job had the requirements for 90 days on the line in wildlnd fire, and how to meet this requirement if you already were established in a pilot career. The answer from a current FS pilot recruiter was, "this was added in the 2000s because too pilots were coming here to get their "time" so they would qualify for the airlines, then leave".
I then asked how one could accomplish that while maintaining a full time pilot job.
Answer" well, any way you can to get that 90 days.
Options I threw out were, sign up for an entry-level wildland gig in the summer while you take a break from flying, get on with a FS contractor that does firefighting/ lead plane with aircraft, or volunteer at your local/dual vfd and hope you are available during a big fire so you can start counting the 90 days..... (College credits in wildland fire wouldn't meet this requirement)
These were all deemed to be acceptable by the recruiter.
I then asked how one could accomplish that while maintaining a full time pilot job.
Answer" well, any way you can to get that 90 days.
Options I threw out were, sign up for an entry-level wildland gig in the summer while you take a break from flying, get on with a FS contractor that does firefighting/ lead plane with aircraft, or volunteer at your local/dual vfd and hope you are available during a big fire so you can start counting the 90 days..... (College credits in wildland fire wouldn't meet this requirement)
These were all deemed to be acceptable by the recruiter.
You can find air attack positions without fire experience, as these are typically the entry level positions, as previously stated, for firefighting. Those are a good place to get your toe wet. From smaller operators like Bridger Aerospace to larger operators like Ponderosa Aviation, they frequently have pilots that return year after year. There are other operators like Baker Aviation that have their own pilot and owner who has been in the business for decades, with tanker and other experience. Not a lot of turnover, but unless you're able to get a rare tanker position, then air attack is the best avenue for someone looking to get in. Air attack positions do not require 90 days of line firefighting experience; the 90 days is a federal requirement, unique to federal vacancy announcements. Air attack positions with private operators (contractors) require the minimum carding requirements, which are the equivalent of ATP minimums. The applicant must meet 135 requirements, must have mountain experience ("typical terrain"), and must have 25 hours in type (which is often obtained during training).
Air attack platforms orbit the fire at least 1,000' above other aircraft, and serve as airborne eyes in the sky, a communications platform, and typically carry a government employee or ex-employee called an "air attack" or ATGS (air tactical group supervisor), who has two decades or more of fire experience on the ground. The ATGS is the one that does the fire work over the fire; the pilot generally orbits and talks to ATC where appropriate. Most all else is handled by the ATGS. At times, when the fire gets busy, the pilot may become involved in coordinating airspace, talking to inbound or outbound tankers, news helicopters, fire helicopters, or other functions. The ATGS does everything else, and is the experienced firefighter on board.
For someone looking to enter aerial fire, a few seasons of air attack are a good introduction to how wildland firefighting works, from the air. A number of air tanker pilots have an air attack background, and there are a lot of air attack pilots out there who have been doing that same role for a long time, too.
Last edited by JohnBurke; 02-17-2021 at 09:13 AM.
#108
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
Most of your posts have been one or two line zingers, seldom with any level of contribution to the subject, mostly sniping from the sidelines in the peanut gallery. Long time delta pilot, it seems.
#109
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 14
I have followed John Burke's advice/info on this thread. He was also kind enough to answer a PM or two that I sent a couple years ago.
Starting my second contract fire season soon.
JB is spot-on.
Public Thank you JB.
To everyone else: like any business, it can be a right place at the right time situation when getting hired. Personally, I laid the groundwork with an operator for almost two years prior to being hired. I refer to the contracting end of things and not a direct government employee situation. ymmv
Good luck.
Starting my second contract fire season soon.
JB is spot-on.
Public Thank you JB.
To everyone else: like any business, it can be a right place at the right time situation when getting hired. Personally, I laid the groundwork with an operator for almost two years prior to being hired. I refer to the contracting end of things and not a direct government employee situation. ymmv
Good luck.
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: AC90 Left
Posts: 114
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