Can I Flight Instruct a 5000 hour pilot?
03-19-2018, 05:42 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 924
Did you occupy the PIC seat? Did you fulfill the duties of PIC? Were you the sole manipulator of the controls? Are you qualified for the aircraft being flown or undergoing a checkride to become qualified? If all of the answers to those questions are yes, that's PIC time. The other pilot would not be able to log PIC time in this scenario unless they were providing you instruction or performing the duties of a safety pilot.
However, to ensure you don't step into a different legal bind I need input from those more knowledgeable than myself on the FAA's stance about compensation. I believe that under some circumstances the FAA considers flight time a form of compensation. You are a commercial pilot and therefore able to receive compensation. Thoughts from others on this area?
However, to ensure you don't step into a different legal bind I need input from those more knowledgeable than myself on the FAA's stance about compensation. I believe that under some circumstances the FAA considers flight time a form of compensation. You are a commercial pilot and therefore able to receive compensation. Thoughts from others on this area?
03-19-2018, 06:12 PM
#13
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,020
Originally Posted by WesternSkies
Value of most of these posts are exactly what you paid for them.
Of course you can give a 5,000 hour pilot dual.
Of course you can give a 5,000 hour pilot dual.
The original poster isn't asking if he can give dual, but if he can log dual given when riding with another pilot, and calling it instruction. It's a time logging question. READ.
Originally Posted by Flightcap
Did you occupy the PIC seat?
Originally Posted by austin27
So what about if I talk to him and we decide that I will be PIC when we fly and he wont log the PIC? He just flies for fun and doesn't really care about logging the time. Even though it is his airplane, he is paying for the fuel, and has much more experience in the plane then me, would that be legal?
03-19-2018, 08:15 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Downward Dog
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
That has never been in question, nor is it the question driving the thread.
The original poster isn't asking if he can give dual, but if he can log dual given when riding with another pilot, and calling it instruction. It's a time logging question. READ.
The original poster isn't asking if he can give dual, but if he can log dual given when riding with another pilot, and calling it instruction. It's a time logging question. READ.
03-19-2018, 09:32 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
Interesting question with a tricky answer.
I think the FAA council has several rulings.
There was one accident investigation of two MEI’s flying together and both logging ME PIC time. One as dual given.
The FAA found them fraudulent as there was no instruction taking place or at least not logged.
With 5000hrs I think you have a hard time proving instruction took place.
Unless you are providing a service such as conducting a Flight review, IPC or a Wings Program flight.
In any case sign his logbook for dual given and what instruction took place.
Make sure his logbook matches yours.
Keep in mind that an incident can occur completely outside of your control. Like a nail on the runway, flat tire and off into the weeds you go.
Who was PIC, who are you, what were you doing in that seat?
The FAA will want to know and so would the insurance company.
Owners can turn on a dime if their toy gets destroyed. And all of a sudden you’re on the hook as you’re the one with the highest rating.
For exactly this reason I would always take the RH seat even as a passenger.
No way I’m getting caught in the backseat during an incident and not being in a position to affect the outcome.
It’s really not worth to risk your career for a handful of hours of “dual given” wink wink....
I think the FAA council has several rulings.
There was one accident investigation of two MEI’s flying together and both logging ME PIC time. One as dual given.
The FAA found them fraudulent as there was no instruction taking place or at least not logged.
With 5000hrs I think you have a hard time proving instruction took place.
Unless you are providing a service such as conducting a Flight review, IPC or a Wings Program flight.
In any case sign his logbook for dual given and what instruction took place.
Make sure his logbook matches yours.
Keep in mind that an incident can occur completely outside of your control. Like a nail on the runway, flat tire and off into the weeds you go.
Who was PIC, who are you, what were you doing in that seat?
The FAA will want to know and so would the insurance company.
Owners can turn on a dime if their toy gets destroyed. And all of a sudden you’re on the hook as you’re the one with the highest rating.
For exactly this reason I would always take the RH seat even as a passenger.
No way I’m getting caught in the backseat during an incident and not being in a position to affect the outcome.
It’s really not worth to risk your career for a handful of hours of “dual given” wink wink....
03-19-2018, 11:28 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 182
What employer or logbook audit is going to ask/require the experience level of the student you taught?
If you are giving him instruction put it as so, if you arent dont.
When i use to instruct and a student would ask if they should or shouldn't be doing something most of the time its the latter.
If you are giving him instruction put it as so, if you arent dont.
When i use to instruct and a student would ask if they should or shouldn't be doing something most of the time its the latter.
03-19-2018, 11:33 PM
#17
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,083
So here’s my scenario:
You’re flying an airplane that you have received no (formal factory) Training in, you’re not a Cirrus certified instructor ( which you have no requirement to be but hold on) you log the “dual given” (and PIC) therefore accepting responsibility for the outcome of the flight.
Like I stated earlier, an accident or incident will bring a lot of scrutiny as to who is what and who is doing what on board this airplane.
What does the owners insurance policy say about flight instruction on his airplane ? Min reqs for the instructor?
Min hours? Min Training received?
Sure, whatch out there’s traffic, clean up your steep turn....dual given log it.
Why not.
But there’s a little more to it then just putting a pen to paper.
Here’s what I would recommend you do:
Have a coffee with the owner and be very honest and upfront.
“I really appreciate you taking me up and I would love to log the time but in order to legally do so may I please review your insurance policy and will you allow me to sign your logbook.”
If not then all is good and just enjoy the experience and be grateful he takes you up.
You’re flying an airplane that you have received no (formal factory) Training in, you’re not a Cirrus certified instructor ( which you have no requirement to be but hold on) you log the “dual given” (and PIC) therefore accepting responsibility for the outcome of the flight.
Like I stated earlier, an accident or incident will bring a lot of scrutiny as to who is what and who is doing what on board this airplane.
What does the owners insurance policy say about flight instruction on his airplane ? Min reqs for the instructor?
Min hours? Min Training received?
Sure, whatch out there’s traffic, clean up your steep turn....dual given log it.
Why not.
But there’s a little more to it then just putting a pen to paper.
Here’s what I would recommend you do:
Have a coffee with the owner and be very honest and upfront.
“I really appreciate you taking me up and I would love to log the time but in order to legally do so may I please review your insurance policy and will you allow me to sign your logbook.”
If not then all is good and just enjoy the experience and be grateful he takes you up.
03-20-2018, 05:25 AM
#18
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,020
Originally Posted by WesternSkies
Is that what he is asking John, is it?
Originally Posted by austin27
I met this guy who owns a cirrus and takes me up quite frequently can I log this a dual given as long as I teach him something in flight? He has thousands of hours and just likes someone to go up with him.
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