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Old 07-16-2018, 05:34 PM   #1  
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Default Why can’t experimental acft be used for hire?

Everyone seems to know it, but I can’t get a straight answer on why! For example, why is aerial photography and selling that imagery illegal using your platform? Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:28 PM   #2  
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Originally Posted by chancechumley View Post
Everyone seems to know it, but I can’t get a straight answer on why! For example, why is aerial photography and selling that imagery illegal using your platform? Thanks in advance.
FAR 91.319 governs experimental ops limits. FAA's mandate is to ENSURE aviation safety and spare the non-flying public from poorly built kit planes. Opening up to specific uses would be Pandora's box so its better to just keep it closed if you are the FAA.

Now is we could get the FAA mandate to read "reasonably reduce risk" in aviation safety then I think we could probably have commercial use of some experimental. But as it stands right now....ENSURE means driving risk to "zero".
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:10 PM   #3  
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Originally Posted by chancechumley View Post
Everyone seems to know it, but I can’t get a straight answer on why! For example, why is aerial photography and selling that imagery illegal using your platform? Thanks in advance.


As for aerial photography I get paid by the picture I take and not by the amount of time so I would assume you could use whatever plane you choose to? Correct me if I’m wrong?


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Old 07-16-2018, 07:21 PM   #4  
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Originally Posted by milldog60 View Post
As for aerial photography I get paid by the picture I take and not by the amount of time so I would assume you could use whatever plane you choose to? Correct me if I’m wrong?


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Yeah, shoot pics from a drone or from a kit plane, I doubt the FAA cares, no paying pax or revenue cargo onboard.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:26 PM   #5  
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Why?

Because the government hates freedom.
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:40 AM   #6  
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Why?

Because the government hates freedom.
There has to be a 12 step program for Faux News junkies.
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:42 AM   #7  
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There has to be a 12 step program for Faux News junkies.
I don't watch FNC, and haven't in well over 10 years.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:21 AM   #8  
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Aircraft bearing experimental certificates cannot fly passengers or property for hire, and cannot tow gliders, banners, or be used for intentional parachute jumping. Numerous limitations can be imposed on experimental aircraft and will be cited on the back of the airworthiness certificate. examples are listed below, though others can be imposed.

From a regulatory perspective, you are prohibited from operating experimental aircraft for compensation or hire. There are narrow exceptions, you can see below.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1319&rgn=div8

Quote:
§91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.


(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has—

(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or

(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.

(j) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate under §61.113(i) of this chapter unless the aircraft is carrying not more than 6 occupants.
Amateur Built Operating Limitations

Quote:
Amateur Built Operating Limitations

Operating limitations will be designed to fit the specific situation encountered. The FAA/DAR may impose any additional limitations deemed necessary in the interest of safety.

The FAA/DAR will review each imposed operating limitation with the applicant to ensure that the operating limitations are understood by the applicant.

The following operating limitations will be prescribed to experimental amateur-built aircraft:

1. No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of FAR 91.319(b) during phase I flight testing, and for recreation and education after meeting these requirements as stated in the program letter (required by FAR 21.193) for this aircraft. In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of FAR 91 and all additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of FAR 91.319(i). These operating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the aircraft.

2. During phase I flight testing to meet the requirements of FAR 91.319(b), all flights must be conducted within the geographical area described as follows:

(a) The area must be described by radius, coordinates, and/or landmarks.

(b) The designated area must be over open water or sparsely populated areas having light air traffic.

(c) The size of the area must be that required to safely conduct anticipated maneuvers and tests, as appropriate.

3. This aircraft must be operated for at least ______ hours in the assigned geographic area.

4. All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under day VFR only. Following satisfactorycompletion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in therecords that the aircraft has been shown to comply with FAR 91.319(b).

Compliance with FAR 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout itsnormal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”

5. Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways.

6. This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate endorsement in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records, and is operating in phase II.

7. This aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.

8. After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with FAR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.

9. Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under FAR 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of FAR 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records.

10. During the flight testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight.

11. No person may operate this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

12. The pilot in command of this aircraft must advise each passenger of the experimental nature of this aircraft, and explain that it does not meet the certification requirements of a standard certificated aircraft.

13. This aircraft must contain the placards or markings, as required by FAR 91.9. In addition, the placards and markings must be inspected for legibility and clarity, and the associated systems inspected for easy access and operation, to ensure they function as intended by the amateur builder/owner during each condition inspection.

14. This aircraft must display the word “EXPERIMENTAL” in accordance with FAR 45.23(b).

15. This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight.

NOTE: If the amateur builder states that the aircraft is capable of aerobatic flight, limitation 16 will be used in lieu of limitation 15.

16. This aircraft may conduct aerobatic flight in accordance with the provisions of FAR 91.303. Aerobatics must not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable and in compliance with FAR 91.319(b). The aircraft may only conduct those aerobatic flight maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished during flight testing and recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records by use of the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the following aerobatic maneuvers have been test flown and that the aircraft is controllable throughout the maneuvers’ normal range of speeds, and is safe for operation. The flight-tested aerobatic maneuvers are _________, _________, __________, and __________.”

NOTE: Applicants will be advised that aerobatics or violent maneuvers should not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable. The operating limitations may be modified to include only those aerobatics/maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished and recorded in the aircraft records during the flight test period.

17. The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold an appropriate category/class rating. If required, the pilot in command also must hold a type rating in accordance with FAR 61, or a letter of authorization issued by an FAA Flight Standards Operations Inspector.

NOTE: This limitation applies to any turbojet/turbofan-powered aircraft, any aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight exceeding 12,500 pounds, or any other aircraft when deemed necessary.

18. The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold a pilot certificate or an authorized instructor’s logbook endorsement. The pilot in command also must meet the requirements of FAR 61.31(e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j), as appropriate.

NOTE: This operating limitation applies to most amateur-built aircraft as a standard operating limitation (reference FAR 61.31(k)).

19. After incorporating a major change as described in FAR 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with FAR 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area.

The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different type of engine (reciprocating to turbine) or a change of a fixed-pitch from or to a controllable propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft’s file in the FAAAircraft Registration Branch.

All operations must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. The FSDO may require additional time (more than 5 hours) depending on the extent of the modification. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed aircraft logbook and maintenance records entry describing the change before the test flight.

Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in therecords that the aircraft has been shown to comply with FAR 91.319(b). Compliance must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement:

“I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”

20. This aircraft must not be used for glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping.
(--Ed--there are exceptions to this limitation, and it is not universally applied)

21. This aircraft does not meet the requirements of the applicable, comprehensive, and detailed airworthiness code, as provided by Annex 8 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. The owner/operator of this aircraft must obtain written permission from another CAA before operating this aircraft in or over that country. That written permission must be carried aboard the aircraft together with the U.S. airworthiness certificate and, upon request, be made available to an FAA inspector or the CAA in the country of operation.

22. No person must operate this aircraft unless within the preceding 12 calendar months it has had a condition inspection performed in accordance with the scope and detail of FAR 43 Appendix D, or other FAA-approved programs, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation. As part of the condition inspection, cockpit instruments must be appropriately marked and needed placards installed in accordance with FAR 91.9. In addition, system-essential controls must be in good condition, securely mounted, clearly marked, and provide for ease of operation. This inspection will be recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records.

23. Condition inspections must be recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records showing the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] in accordance with the scope and detail of FAR 43 Appendix D, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation.” The entry will include the aircraft’s total time-in-service (cycles if appropriate), and the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held by the person performing the inspection.

NOTE: Limitations 24 and 25 will be issued in lieu of limitations 22 and 23 for turbine-powered amateur-built aircraft.

24. This aircraft must not be operated unless it is inspected and maintained in accordance with an inspection program selected, established, identified, and used as set forth in FAR 91.409(e) through (h). This inspection must be recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records.

25. Inspections must be recorded in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records showing the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] in accordance with the scope and detail of the [identify program, title] FSDO-approved program dated ________, and found to be in a condition for safe operation.” The entry will include the aircraft’s total time-in-service (cycles if appropriate), and the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held by the person performing the inspection.

26. An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft under FAR 65.104 or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic may perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations.

27. Application must be made to the geographically responsible FSDO or MIDO for any revision to these operating limitations.

28. The pilot in command of this aircraft must notify air traffic control of the experimental nature of this aircraft when operating into or out of airports with an operational control tower. When filing IFR, the experimental nature of this aircraft must be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan.
To be continued.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:45 AM   #9  
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The FAA Chief Legal Counsel has addressed this issue in interpreting the regulation. For example, regarding experimental aircraft used for aerial survey work, the following letter was issued:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

Note that the Chief Legal Counsel addressed the purpose of issuance of the experimental certificate. 14 CFR 91.319(a)(1) states that no person may use an aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate, for other than the purpose for which it was issued. 14 CFR 21.191 cites various reasons for issuance, including research and development, showing compliance with regulations, crew training, exhibition, air racing, market surveys, operating amateur-built aircraft, operating primary kit-built aircraft, operating light-sport aircraft, and operating a light-sport aircraft.

Without determining the purpose and limitations of the specific aircraft's airworthiness certificate, the legalities can't be directly answered. In the case of the legal interpretation below, operating the aircraft for aerial survey work isn't legal unless it's authorized in the airworthiness certificate and shows in the purpose of issuance.

Authorization can be had. The FAA has held that carriage of persons part of the operation (employees of the same company) are not passengers for hire and additional legal interpretations have been issued and are available.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
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