av8nallday

Hello all,

I have been approached by a friend in the industry that flys for the majors. He has expressed interest in having me come fly a Citation for a friend of his once I get done with my CFI ratings.

I was wondering if anyone had some information on how logging time would work? Since it is a single pilot aircraft, would I be logging SIC time? How would I log PIC and would the SIC time count towards my ATP?

There seems to be a lot of back and forth on this subject online but it’s hard to figure out who really knows what’s what. I don’t want to run away from instructing if this isn’t something that will be counting towards my ATP minimums.

Any information is greatly appreciated!

Thinice

From what I have read, the short answer is it won't count. Look at the Cato and Nichols legal interpretations from the FAA.

Depending on the series of Citation and you're saying it's a single pilot aircraft, it is either rated for single pilot ops or can be flown single pilot if properly rated...as in C 525(s) type rating. If it's the later, there is some wiggle room but honestly the hoops you have to jump through to make that work are a pain and tough to justify.

The remedy is to get the PIC type and go from there. It's a chunk of change but makes it legal and log-able.

I was offered several similar opportunities but ultimately passed because I couldn't justify trying to explain how I logged the time when I put myself in the position of any future employer or DPE going over my 8710.

I guess the question is would the friend be interested in springing for the type rating?

Good luck!

av8nallday

Thanks for your reply! From the last conversation I had it was brief because I’ve got my last few checkrides a week apart from each other. It seemed as if they would be willing to get me typed. I’ll find out more once I’m done they are waiting for a call from me so we can hash out the details. I just wanted to have some info before I jump into something that sounds great.

I agree from everything I’ve read it seems that when you take jobs like these it can become pretty hairy trying to explain your time to your future employer. At this point I’m playing the waiting game.

I’ve become really good friends with a DPE and he’s said to take it instead of instructing because all the airlines care about is the turbine PIC. So I suppose if I can get that then it might be justifiable. But then again I question whether or not I’ll hit my ATP qualifications in a decent amount of time.

JohnBurke

Nobody believes that you're PIC of the citation with a fresh commercial. Despite sole manipulator, the farce is seen for what it is, and nobody will believe you signed for the airplane.

av8nallday

You want to elaborate?

JohnBurke

You really need it spelled out for you?

A 250 hour captain in a Citation?

Really?

Tell me about the insurance carrier. I'd love to have a chat with them.

av8nallday

I’m not sure why you’re so hostile. Why would I even make that up? It does me no good asking for some guidance on something that is purely hypothetical.

Not to mention I never said I was going to be PIC at 250 hours. Clearly you read what you wanted to read and not what I asked. I asked about SIC time, which anyone with a brain would know. Although I mentioned single pilot ops the company wants two pilots in the cockpit, hence the SIC.

Maybe pull the stick out and get off your high horse. It seems a lot of you old timers forgot what it was like to be low time! Oh wait that’s right minimums weren’t as high as they are now. Clearly you just forgot where you came from to get where you are now. Have a good day.

USMCFLYR

You were doing good until this inaccurate comment.

Back in the day of the "old timers" - you would be flying a clapped out piston or turboprop twin until you had a few thousand hours of doing quite a few different jobs in piston singles.

Settle down and try to look past the pitch (we all do) and listen to the content.

JohnBurke

New guy:

While the regulation will allow you to log pilot in command time as sole manipulator of the controls, when you move up to a job outside of a 172, employers look at your PIC time as representative of the time you were actually pilot in command. Not simply logging a few hours pretending to be PIC. They understand that the regulation allows one to log sole manipulator, but when an employer asks about your PIC experience, they want to know about the time when you were responsible for the outcome of the flight, and the final authority for its operation.

The pilot who shows up with 500 hours total time and half of that as Citation PIC will not pass the smell test. You may think that you're bolstering your flight time and impressing someone, but it has the opposite effect: it makes you look bad. When we say it doesn't pass the smell test, this means it stinks. Yes, you can legally log it, but logging pilot in command time and acting as pilot in command (BEING the pilot in command) are not the same thing. There is a big difference.

When it comes to logging turbine time, especially if you intend to represent yourself as having that turbine experience, then you are best presenting yourself as a second in command until you've actually been placed in command of that flight...and nobody is going to insure a 250 hour fresh commercial pilot as the captain of their citation.

As for those lower entry requirements you alluded to...it took 15 years of ballbusting hard work, flying under powerlines, down burning canyons, and dragging airplanes through ice at night and down mountainsides...just to get to that first turbine seat. How many of those fifteen years are you planning on putting in before you fall into your first "jet job?" I appreciate your thinking you know it all and have the tiger by the tail from day one, fresh out of the gate, but it just ain't so. Act accordingly. There's a lot left to learn.

TiredSoul

This ^^^
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/multiple-errors-contributed-to-fatal-teterboro-lea-456614/

Lear not a Citation but that doesn’t matter for the story.
Bad PIC with a bad SIC.
I’m sure they both thought they knew “it” also.
This has to be a Part 91 operation so you should be logging SIC time even with a PIC type.
Once you start flying empty legs as “sole manipulator” you could log PIC but it would behoove you to log Dual received also.
The other pilot doesn’t need an MEI to teach you, same company so he/she needs an ATP.
Have them sign your log entries.
It’s now legal and explainable.
Let’s not forget it’s not only the regs but the Insurance company that determines who can be PIC, acting or otherwise.

Now for something completely different.
How many hours do you expect to fly in this Citation?
400/year that’s 3 years to ATP
300/year 4 years to ATP
200/year 6 years to ATP
Are you sure you want this?
Busy flight school will have you at ATP within 2(!) years.
Yes only piston PIC.
Had a former student who fell into a GV job right after his CPL.
Ended up flying <100(!) hrs a year.
Got himself stuck in a golden cage.
Not enough hrs to go anywhere but a single engine piston job....after 5 years.
Last time I saw him he was late 40’s and still <1000hrs.

You may need to choose a job that gets you to ATP the quickest and forego the shiny jet.