Non-CFI Routes to Building Time/Low Time Jobs
02-17-2010, 09:47 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Feb 2010
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Non-CFI Routes to Building Time/Low Time Jobs
Hi I am a 22 year old with Multi&Single Engine Commercial Instrument and Commercial Single Engine Sea Ratings. I am currently unable to afford the ammount of money it takes to get your CFI(Where i live currently it is running around 6K). I am looking for a job that would take a pilot with 320 hours 50 multi and allow him to work for them and build time. The ammount of pay is not really a big issue. I know that my best option is Banner Towing and was wondering if any one had any other Ideas?
Feel free to use this for talking about other oportunities out there. I appreciate all the help.
Feel free to use this for talking about other oportunities out there. I appreciate all the help.
02-17-2010, 10:25 AM
#2
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Posts: 2,278
So, you are looking for a job? Then join the club. Although you do not need to get your CFI to get a job, it is nearly impossible to find a job with low time and no CFI in this economy unless you know someone (and that someone better be the CEO or president). Also, unless those 320 hours are all in tailwheel aircraft, your chances of getting a job towing are very small. As a commercial pilot without 135 IFR minimums, the services you can provide are very limited. With a CFI, you can at least find people who need to get flight reviews and pick up some time that way.
Also, $6,000 is pretty high. You can do it for cheaper, but it requires you to go pat 61 and do nearly all of the learning by yourself. Here is an explanation from another thread about how I did it for less than half that price.
If you haven’t guessed by now, the focus for the CFI is on your knowledge and judgment. If you have not completed your FOI and CFI written, don’t even attempt to start flying. Both tests are easy, but the FOI is new and you will need to really know it for the checkride. It is all about how people learn and how to effectively teach.
Once those are done, it is now time to really train. Get some private and commercial PTS books and start memorizing every maneuver and their tolerances. After that, grab any instructional material on how to fly the maneuvers. No matter what you use, they will all pretty much tell you how the FAA wants people to fly each maneuver. I used UND’s Podcasts because they gave canned FAA lessons and I could play them in the car. Overtime, I just memorized each podcast. Once you can recite lessons from memory without thinking, you are ready to start flying.
The reason why you should wait until you have these memorized before you start is that when the student/instructor/examiner says they need you to teach the maneuver while you fly it, you will need to fly a good example, search for traffic, and verbally instruct. That is very hard to do if you are trying to focus your mind on the maneuver and the explanation at the same time. Your instructor will then be able to teach you the finer points and traps students/examiners might get you in. Another good (but very boring tool) is the 4 hour King Schools CFI Prep DVD. It goes through the ground and flight test for the CFI and gives you another chance to hear how the FAA likes you to teach lessons.
The CFI is all mental, so if you know your material and can communicate it effectively, you are more than half way there. To really be good, try to remember what it was like for you to learn how to fly and think about the good things and the bad things your instructors did and learn from them. Also, it is no joke; students will try to kill you, so you must be ready all the time. It is not too difficult as long as you remember that.
In the meantime, find any job, even a non flying one, and save up for your CFI. Once you have that, then you can start earning some money from flight instructing to get your CFI-I, or build enough time to get a job as a jump pilot, banner pilot, survey pilot, or anything else. In my brief experience however, you get a lot more flight time flight instructing.
If you cannot afford to get your CFI now, then you also might want to consider a non piloting career. If you are already living at your financial limits, then ask yourself how you are going to survive the next five years making nearly nothing while you build your time up to ATP minimums to even have a chance at a better paying job?
Also, $6,000 is pretty high. You can do it for cheaper, but it requires you to go pat 61 and do nearly all of the learning by yourself. Here is an explanation from another thread about how I did it for less than half that price.
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
I got mine in 5 hours and I think I can give you some tips. This checkride is unlike anyother you have done, and so is the training. It has almost nothing to do with how you fly, so don’t focus on the flight part of training. Learning to fly from the right seat takes about 1 hour of air work and 30 minutes of landing. After that you should feel just as comfortable flying from the right as you do from the left. By now you can fly a plane and you will not be learning any new maneuvers, so don’t worry about the physical flying aspect.
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
If you haven’t guessed by now, the focus for the CFI is on your knowledge and judgment. If you have not completed your FOI and CFI written, don’t even attempt to start flying. Both tests are easy, but the FOI is new and you will need to really know it for the checkride. It is all about how people learn and how to effectively teach.
Once those are done, it is now time to really train. Get some private and commercial PTS books and start memorizing every maneuver and their tolerances. After that, grab any instructional material on how to fly the maneuvers. No matter what you use, they will all pretty much tell you how the FAA wants people to fly each maneuver. I used UND’s Podcasts because they gave canned FAA lessons and I could play them in the car. Overtime, I just memorized each podcast. Once you can recite lessons from memory without thinking, you are ready to start flying.
The reason why you should wait until you have these memorized before you start is that when the student/instructor/examiner says they need you to teach the maneuver while you fly it, you will need to fly a good example, search for traffic, and verbally instruct. That is very hard to do if you are trying to focus your mind on the maneuver and the explanation at the same time. Your instructor will then be able to teach you the finer points and traps students/examiners might get you in. Another good (but very boring tool) is the 4 hour King Schools CFI Prep DVD. It goes through the ground and flight test for the CFI and gives you another chance to hear how the FAA likes you to teach lessons.
The CFI is all mental, so if you know your material and can communicate it effectively, you are more than half way there. To really be good, try to remember what it was like for you to learn how to fly and think about the good things and the bad things your instructors did and learn from them. Also, it is no joke; students will try to kill you, so you must be ready all the time. It is not too difficult as long as you remember that.
If you cannot afford to get your CFI now, then you also might want to consider a non piloting career. If you are already living at your financial limits, then ask yourself how you are going to survive the next five years making nearly nothing while you build your time up to ATP minimums to even have a chance at a better paying job?
02-17-2010, 10:33 AM
#3
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Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: DHC-8 FO
Posts: 283
You make a lot of very good points. I am not inclined at this moment to just give up and look into something non flight related. I got 90 percent of my multi time for free for vacuuming the guys aircraft when i got done working my shift on the line. Also as a student the financial issues are there but as i will have no student loans when i graduate then i think i could safely live on what a starting pilot makes. Right now i am just trying to reach that 500 hour mark. Also the CFI doesn't guarentee you anything. My buddy has his got it this summer and has not instructed since november. I apreciate your ideas and i have looked into the jump pilot and other optioins and there are things out ther you just have to find them. I am jsut talking about the different oportunities for people like me who are actively looking for seasonal position or even full time. You just have to stay positive and keep looking
02-17-2010, 10:46 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Your right, there are other opportunities for jobs and a CFI guarantees nothing, but I have passed the 500 hour mark with a CFI and it is still very difficult. The only jobs I have found are flight instruction and very few ferry jobs. The only guarantee is that I would not have gotten either of those jobs without my CFI. I just don't know how you can get to 500 hours without a CFI today.
You already found out one way though, networking. That is the only way to get hours when you have low time. Jump schools are tight communities, so if you want to do that, start hanging out around jump schools. They might allow you to sit right seat for a while, and if you had your CFI, you would be able to log that time. If the pilot has a CFI, you are in luck though. If you try to get hired without any connections, be prepared. I interviewed for a jump school to fly a 182 for $8 an hour, but they turned me down because I would not agree to pay for 10 hours in their 182. Apparently, there was too much of a difference between the 182 I flew with a G1000, and their steam gauge 182 even though 90% of my time is on steam gauges.
You already found out one way though, networking. That is the only way to get hours when you have low time. Jump schools are tight communities, so if you want to do that, start hanging out around jump schools. They might allow you to sit right seat for a while, and if you had your CFI, you would be able to log that time. If the pilot has a CFI, you are in luck though. If you try to get hired without any connections, be prepared. I interviewed for a jump school to fly a 182 for $8 an hour, but they turned me down because I would not agree to pay for 10 hours in their 182. Apparently, there was too much of a difference between the 182 I flew with a G1000, and their steam gauge 182 even though 90% of my time is on steam gauges.
02-17-2010, 10:50 AM
#5
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Yeah i have hit the barrier of the people wanting you to pay for time before they pay you. There are only a few Jump school here in Washington and so far i haven't been able to spend any time around them. I am hoping to change that though as the weather gets better. I would like to get my CFI but at the moment I just don't see it as a financially sound decision for me. the opportunities are there weather or not i have the CFI. I haven't gotten in on any ferry jobs but that market is pretty maxed out out here as i have found. Right no i am looking into a Weather Modification program where i could probably get some time. You ever hear anything on those ops?
02-17-2010, 11:55 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Hawker 800XP/G280 PIC
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One of the places I towed banners does not require very much tailwheel time other than an endorsement. If you have about 10-20 hrs you are fine. They like training people that haven't towed before because they like things done a certain way and don't want to have to break your habits, be them good or bad ones. The pay was pretty good and you don't pay for training, at least I didn't last year. I'd be happy to give you some more info but unless you have your TW endorsement do not apply, they will just trash your stuff. If you want to go this route you better act quick, I know they are training people right now for the summer season.
As a side note, I do not have my CFI. I was in your same boat. Not enough money for it and just wanted to start flying and making money. I got my first banner job in 07 with 300 hrs, just a commercial and TW. Flew 500 hrs in that summer. That led to the next job, which led to this job. I'm flying the Navajo now and have 1800 total, 500 multi. Hopefully when the economy gets going and people start hiring I'll be in a better position. Getting your CFI might open some more doors but you never know. I'd say if you can reverse the cash flow out of your wallet and start putting some back in... do it. Good luck.
As a side note, I do not have my CFI. I was in your same boat. Not enough money for it and just wanted to start flying and making money. I got my first banner job in 07 with 300 hrs, just a commercial and TW. Flew 500 hrs in that summer. That led to the next job, which led to this job. I'm flying the Navajo now and have 1800 total, 500 multi. Hopefully when the economy gets going and people start hiring I'll be in a better position. Getting your CFI might open some more doors but you never know. I'd say if you can reverse the cash flow out of your wallet and start putting some back in... do it. Good luck.
02-17-2010, 12:18 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 276
Trust me. As a 35 year CFI-I, you will not have really known how to fly until you teach someone else. People say students try to kill you. Only if you let them get the best of you. You have to remember, as an instructor, how can they know what to do if it has not been taught to them? You are young, bide your time. Your chance will come. Getting your CFI will be the best money you ever spent.
02-17-2010, 12:41 PM
#8
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I would really appreciate any leads you could give me. I don't currently have a tail wheel endorsement but i do have around 10 hours of Tail wheel time. I haven't flown with a cfi long enough to get one but i know where i can get one. Also I wouldn't be able to start until the first week of April. Do you think that would be a problem? If you could e-mail that info to [email protected] I would greatly appreciate it.
Originally Posted by SkyStormer6
One of the places I towed banners does not require very much tailwheel time other than an endorsement. If you have about 10-20 hrs you are fine. They like training people that haven't towed before because they like things done a certain way and don't want to have to break your habits, be them good or bad ones. The pay was pretty good and you don't pay for training, at least I didn't last year. I'd be happy to give you some more info but unless you have your TW endorsement do not apply, they will just trash your stuff. If you want to go this route you better act quick, I know they are training people right now for the summer season.
As a side note, I do not have my CFI. I was in your same boat. Not enough money for it and just wanted to start flying and making money. I got my first banner job in 07 with 300 hrs, just a commercial and TW. Flew 500 hrs in that summer. That led to the next job, which led to this job. I'm flying the Navajo now and have 1800 total, 500 multi. Hopefully when the economy gets going and people start hiring I'll be in a better position. Getting your CFI might open some more doors but you never know. I'd say if you can reverse the cash flow out of your wallet and start putting some back in... do it. Good luck.
As a side note, I do not have my CFI. I was in your same boat. Not enough money for it and just wanted to start flying and making money. I got my first banner job in 07 with 300 hrs, just a commercial and TW. Flew 500 hrs in that summer. That led to the next job, which led to this job. I'm flying the Navajo now and have 1800 total, 500 multi. Hopefully when the economy gets going and people start hiring I'll be in a better position. Getting your CFI might open some more doors but you never know. I'd say if you can reverse the cash flow out of your wallet and start putting some back in... do it. Good luck.
02-17-2010, 01:38 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
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Posts: 2,413
its bad out there right now, skydiving gigs exist, but good luck finding any that will pay for your training, almost all require 500 ttl, 25 type, for a 182, due to insurance, and you need some training on flying jumpers, which again most will make you pay for. A few places will let you fly 250 ttl, 25 type (look at skydive finger lakes), what I did is worked at a place in manifest, and paid for the time (25type) at a VERY good rate, we also ferried the 182 a good amount and I would get free time then. Your competing with people out there with jump time, and most DZO's dont want some guy without jump time flying them up to do tandems, or damaging the plane. Banner towing is your best bet to build time, or get your CFI. Also there seem to be less and less DZ's with Cessnas and turbines are slowly becoming almost required to be competitive in most areas. Also you got a ton of places with long term jump staff that have learned to fly and now fly for them in a pinch, and pilots that also skydive get a good in for a job. Good thing is there are not many people becoming pilots and this will all move fast down the road.
02-18-2010, 07:22 AM
#10
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Agreed I have been trying to get on with a skydive outfit here in Washington for three summers and they already have pilots or want someone with a ton of time to fly their turbines. The one outfit that might have worked went out of business. Pretty much i have come to the conclusion that there just isn't a lot of opportunities for summer flying jobs. people want you to be around for a long time if their gonna put you on insurance or other issues. I am currently jsut trying to find some right seat oportunites with some twin turbine operators or even some Navaho/Chieften or Twin Cessna.
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