A great article on the "pay to fly" jobs
07-04-2011, 04:01 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Lovin' life at .4 (ish) mach
Posts: 1,317
Originally Posted by RJMFlyboi
Hey guys,
I completely understand where you all are coming from, and let me tell you I really wish I had this information before I even started looking into flying. I am the first member of my family to step into the aviation world, so it was very difficult for me to figure much of anything out.
Let me give you a little background on where I I've been, and perhaps you guys can give some suggestions rather than just straight up telling me to go to a different career.
I attended a flight school that claimed they had the key to success in getting jobs with airlines. They guaranteed once I graduated I would have a job no matter what. (later I came to find out if I didn't get hired by an airline they would higher me as an instructor).
After spending $40,000 on just my Privates and instrument licenses I was unable to attain anymore loans. I than returned home for a year working waiting tables etc. at dead end jobs. Eventually my school called me back letting me know of a new way I could attain additional funding. I would say I was going to attend a PTF job, however I would be able to attain extra money to finish out my training, and then go directly there.
After all's said and done, I'm $150,000 in the hole, no instructor ratings to speak of, no job and only around 600 hours. Reading what you gentleman have said about PTF I feel I am especially screwed and have no idea how I'm going to be able to pay my loans, let alone get back to flying.
I'm looking into trying to save money and get my instructors ratings (probably through ATP) however, after reading this forum post I'm starting to wonder if I'll even have a future in aviation if all recruiters feel this way.
I'm seeking help and direction if any of you are willing to help.
Thank you for your time,
R
I completely understand where you all are coming from, and let me tell you I really wish I had this information before I even started looking into flying. I am the first member of my family to step into the aviation world, so it was very difficult for me to figure much of anything out.
Let me give you a little background on where I I've been, and perhaps you guys can give some suggestions rather than just straight up telling me to go to a different career.
I attended a flight school that claimed they had the key to success in getting jobs with airlines. They guaranteed once I graduated I would have a job no matter what. (later I came to find out if I didn't get hired by an airline they would higher me as an instructor).
After spending $40,000 on just my Privates and instrument licenses I was unable to attain anymore loans. I than returned home for a year working waiting tables etc. at dead end jobs. Eventually my school called me back letting me know of a new way I could attain additional funding. I would say I was going to attend a PTF job, however I would be able to attain extra money to finish out my training, and then go directly there.
After all's said and done, I'm $150,000 in the hole, no instructor ratings to speak of, no job and only around 600 hours. Reading what you gentleman have said about PTF I feel I am especially screwed and have no idea how I'm going to be able to pay my loans, let alone get back to flying.
I'm looking into trying to save money and get my instructors ratings (probably through ATP) however, after reading this forum post I'm starting to wonder if I'll even have a future in aviation if all recruiters feel this way.
I'm seeking help and direction if any of you are willing to help.
Thank you for your time,
R
I hope you can find a way to cure this situation and get into aviation. I hate to see people not being able to reach their dreams. But with that much I wouldn't go the regional route though.
07-14-2011, 07:04 PM
#33
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by scumby
Except the military pilot. Everything is handed to them with white gloves and hot tea. (I'm enlisted, just like to stir up the pot a little bit) I don't prefer PTF pilots but it's the nature of the beast.
Just kidding, we all spend our time at the bottom, even those of us that have earned our wings in something that flies mach 1.3 at 40K. I spent 3 years as an F-16 crew chief wiping bugs off the windshield of my jet so someone else could go out and have all the fun with it. Also worked at the local FBO spraying glycol, driving crappy fuel trucks with lousy brakes carrying a few thousand gallons of JP in the back and delivering pizza to support my CFI/charter pilot habit (made anywhere from $50 to $250 per week actually flying, the rest was either fueling other guys toys or delivering them a pie.)
Next time you see a guy in a green poop suit, don't be so quick to think he had it easy - they may have actually busted their backside to get where they are (and UPT is no picnic, and neither is having the things done to you that they do in SERE - civilian pilots don't have to spend time in a POW camp to get to fly their jet.)
Good luck, have fun, keep the shiny side up.
11-07-2011, 06:42 AM
#34
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
All of us pay
In the end we all pay. Some with days of their lives, others by living overseas. Most of us buy our own education and flight training through CFI. To many careers that is an offense.
If all that separated you from the job of your dreams was another 30K where is the sense in not doing it?
As pilots we will continue to have to pay long after the last check ride is done. Type ratings to get the next job. The first year on probation wages. Training contracts. Moving all the time for the job. It never ends.
Some pay in cash while others in wasted days of their lives. In the end however we all pay. Buying a job is a risk. Not buying a job is also a risk.
Skyhigh
If all that separated you from the job of your dreams was another 30K where is the sense in not doing it?
As pilots we will continue to have to pay long after the last check ride is done. Type ratings to get the next job. The first year on probation wages. Training contracts. Moving all the time for the job. It never ends.
Some pay in cash while others in wasted days of their lives. In the end however we all pay. Buying a job is a risk. Not buying a job is also a risk.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-07-2011 at 07:59 AM.
11-07-2011, 07:39 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Junior
Posts: 280
It is noble for a company looking for pilots to dismiss a pilot who paid for training, but the reality is majors don't care how they got the experience. I had the opportunity to do pay for training but refused and it cost me 6 years (long story) to get the experience to get hired at a regional who wasnt PFT. Then, the upgrade was stagnant and took forever to make captain. I would go to the AirInc job fairs with no pic turbine and they would tell me to come back when I met the 1000 hr pic turbine mins. Meanwhile I would look around and see the guys that took the PFT jobs who had been captain for three years by now chatting it up with HR for interviews.
How much did turning down that $9000 First Officer job in 1992 cost me? A bit more than $9000. I don't like it but as long as there are some willing to pay, there will be opportunities for them to jump in front of the line with daddy's money in hand.
I saw 22 y/o First Officers at Continental Express in the nineties who were making $14000 a year wearing Rolex watches dragging $300 leather kit bags through the airport after spending the 9K for training. This is a rich man's game and the PFT program companies know it. They will run it until they get all who can pay to shell out the bucks then phase out the program as they run out of the silver spoon crowd.
Do what you have to do, just don't expect everyone to be impressed that you got hired on with a major before you were 25.
How much did turning down that $9000 First Officer job in 1992 cost me? A bit more than $9000. I don't like it but as long as there are some willing to pay, there will be opportunities for them to jump in front of the line with daddy's money in hand.
I saw 22 y/o First Officers at Continental Express in the nineties who were making $14000 a year wearing Rolex watches dragging $300 leather kit bags through the airport after spending the 9K for training. This is a rich man's game and the PFT program companies know it. They will run it until they get all who can pay to shell out the bucks then phase out the program as they run out of the silver spoon crowd.
Do what you have to do, just don't expect everyone to be impressed that you got hired on with a major before you were 25.
11-07-2011, 08:02 AM
#36
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Spend money
You got to spend money to make money. Buying the time is a valid option. Some here have dads at the majors. Others have enjoyed better timing of the industry. Some only have money. Buying a job might cost you a job at the lower rungs of the ladder but the majors don't care how you got there. Use what you have to get ahead and don't look back.
However if you are poor and lack connections then all that you have in your war chest are days of your life working for scumbag operators slowly climbing the ladder at great personal abuse while watching your peers get ahead using the resources that they have. Life is not fair. In America we are all taught to go after what you want in life over what makes the most sense.
A different approach might be to take a survey of all your assets and choose a career based upon what you have available to you and not let your wants take the drivers seat. If your father owns a furniture store then perhaps you should be a salesman. If your father is a senior pilot at SWA and owns a hangar full of airplanes then perhaps the easiest route for you would be to become a pilot.
Skyhigh
However if you are poor and lack connections then all that you have in your war chest are days of your life working for scumbag operators slowly climbing the ladder at great personal abuse while watching your peers get ahead using the resources that they have. Life is not fair. In America we are all taught to go after what you want in life over what makes the most sense.
A different approach might be to take a survey of all your assets and choose a career based upon what you have available to you and not let your wants take the drivers seat. If your father owns a furniture store then perhaps you should be a salesman. If your father is a senior pilot at SWA and owns a hangar full of airplanes then perhaps the easiest route for you would be to become a pilot.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-07-2011 at 08:15 AM.
11-07-2011, 08:42 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
Not sure what your point Fr8doggie, since absolutely none of the regionals are PFT. There is no reason for it these days, unless you're too lazy to work as a CFI and/or at a freight/charter outfit for a few months once you hit 135 IFR mins.
I've noticed a recurring theme here... Those that consistently feel sorry for themselves also grapple with job woes. I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps there's something about that attitude that potential employers see? Just a thought.
I've noticed a recurring theme here... Those that consistently feel sorry for themselves also grapple with job woes. I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps there's something about that attitude that potential employers see? Just a thought.
11-07-2011, 11:08 AM
#38
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
The issue
Originally Posted by wrxpilot
Not sure what your point Fr8doggie, since absolutely none of the regionals are PFT. There is no reason for it these days, unless you're too lazy to work as a CFI and/or at a freight/charter outfit for a few months once you hit 135 IFR mins.
I've noticed a recurring theme here... Those that consistently feel sorry for themselves also grapple with job woes. I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps there's something about that attitude that potential employers see? Just a thought.
I've noticed a recurring theme here... Those that consistently feel sorry for themselves also grapple with job woes. I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps there's something about that attitude that potential employers see? Just a thought.
Time is money. Sometimes buying the time is the best route.
Skyhigh
11-07-2011, 11:33 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
The issue is that it is not all that easy for everyone. Some live in areas where CFI work is limited. Others can not find a good and safe part 135 outfit while others are stuck in the right seat at a go nowhere regional.
Time is money. Sometimes buying the time is the best route.
Skyhigh
Time is money. Sometimes buying the time is the best route.
Skyhigh
11-07-2011, 03:01 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by featheredprop
Oh lets not forget the bogus CRJ courses given at ATP that cost the same as some type rating .The percieved cure for shiny jet syndrome .
Does it really make a difference, I'm gonna say no.
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