1000 TT looking for a job close to ORD/MDW
09-27-2010, 07:31 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by g4downin
Or perhaps they should require low-time new hires with the more senior/distinguished captains?
Gaining experience in icing conditions, and understanding all the characteristics and factors of stalls is something pilots develop in the first 1500 hours. Before the FAA wants you to be responsible for the lives of 10-300 of the general public, they want you to have a good foundation of airmanship. They want you to spend 1500 hours teaching students stall recoveries and having to recover the aircraft when the student accidentally spins it. They want you to experience icing while flying cargo or charter. They want you to develop your piloting skills while risking the lives of only a relatively small amount of other people.
You might think that you are ready to act as an FO after you pass your commercial checkride, but you are not. Sure you can recover from a stall, complete an engine failure checklist, and fly an approach down to minimums, but those are only simulations of what you will be expected to do. You are not going to ever stall an aircraft after you reach a safe altitude, clear the area of traffic, and willingly stall the aircraft. In the real world, you are tired, the weather is bad, and you are busy studying the approach plate. While you are thinking about the taxi into the gate, you notice a buffet. So far in your life the only time you experienced that was when you were purposefully making the aircraft stall. What happens when you look at your airspeed indicator and it is well above the stall speed? How long will it take you to believe the aircraft is stalling? What happens when your crewmember recovers incorrectly by lifting up that flaps before you reduce the angle of attack and gain more airspeed? If you had 1500 hours of instructing or charter experience, you would have gone over stall recoveries so many times that you say them in your sleep. You experienced so many students pushing the wrong button or pulling the wrong lever that you developed the ability to slap someone’s hand the instant they try to do something wrong. If you had 1500 hours of 135 time, you would have likely experienced icing in small planes and learned when to expect it, how the aircraft will respond, and to respect it. If you do not have these experiences, you are not ready to be in the cockpit of an aircraft flying a demanding schedule for long hours with dozens of people.
It is the equivalent of someone getting a business degree and claiming that they are qualified to run General Electric. Sure you might have done great in training and plenty of others with the same experience have done it before, but that does not mean you are ready or that they were. Before you are the CEO of a national company, you start out as the manager at a small company, or maybe you start your own. The point is, start small so that your mistakes are small. If you really are a professional, getting another 1200 hours should not be too difficult.
09-28-2010, 10:34 AM
#23
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
They already do. There are many restrictions placed on an FO with less than 100 hours in type and at least one of the paired crewmembers must have 75 hours in type under 121. This was not the problem of the Colgan crash. The errors the crew made had nothing to do with being in an unfamiliar aircraft or not knowing how to perform their duties under normal circumstances. Fatigue was likely a factor and that does need to be fixed, but fundamental airmanship was the major factor and the 1500 hour rule attempts to fix.
Gaining experience in icing conditions, and understanding all the characteristics and factors of stalls is something pilots develop in the first 1500 hours. Before the FAA wants you to be responsible for the lives of 10-300 of the general public, they want you to have a good foundation of airmanship. They want you to spend 1500 hours teaching students stall recoveries and having to recover the aircraft when the student accidentally spins it. They want you to experience icing while flying cargo or charter. They want you to develop your piloting skills while risking the lives of only a relatively small amount of other people.
You might think that you are ready to act as an FO after you pass your commercial checkride, but you are not. Sure you can recover from a stall, complete an engine failure checklist, and fly an approach down to minimums, but those are only simulations of what you will be expected to do. You are not going to ever stall an aircraft after you reach a safe altitude, clear the area of traffic, and willingly stall the aircraft. In the real world, you are tired, the weather is bad, and you are busy studying the approach plate. While you are thinking about the taxi into the gate, you notice a buffet. So far in your life the only time you experienced that was when you were purposefully making the aircraft stall. What happens when you look at your airspeed indicator and it is well above the stall speed? How long will it take you to believe the aircraft is stalling? What happens when your crewmember recovers incorrectly by lifting up that flaps before you reduce the angle of attack and gain more airspeed? If you had 1500 hours of instructing or charter experience, you would have gone over stall recoveries so many times that you say them in your sleep. You experienced so many students pushing the wrong button or pulling the wrong lever that you developed the ability to slap someone’s hand the instant they try to do something wrong. If you had 1500 hours of 135 time, you would have likely experienced icing in small planes and learned when to expect it, how the aircraft will respond, and to respect it. If you do not have these experiences, you are not ready to be in the cockpit of an aircraft flying a demanding schedule for long hours with dozens of people.
It is the equivalent of someone getting a business degree and claiming that they are qualified to run General Electric. Sure you might have done great in training and plenty of others with the same experience have done it before, but that does not mean you are ready or that they were. Before you are the CEO of a national company, you start out as the manager at a small company, or maybe you start your own. The point is, start small so that your mistakes are small. If you really are a professional, getting another 1200 hours should not be too difficult.
Gaining experience in icing conditions, and understanding all the characteristics and factors of stalls is something pilots develop in the first 1500 hours. Before the FAA wants you to be responsible for the lives of 10-300 of the general public, they want you to have a good foundation of airmanship. They want you to spend 1500 hours teaching students stall recoveries and having to recover the aircraft when the student accidentally spins it. They want you to experience icing while flying cargo or charter. They want you to develop your piloting skills while risking the lives of only a relatively small amount of other people.
You might think that you are ready to act as an FO after you pass your commercial checkride, but you are not. Sure you can recover from a stall, complete an engine failure checklist, and fly an approach down to minimums, but those are only simulations of what you will be expected to do. You are not going to ever stall an aircraft after you reach a safe altitude, clear the area of traffic, and willingly stall the aircraft. In the real world, you are tired, the weather is bad, and you are busy studying the approach plate. While you are thinking about the taxi into the gate, you notice a buffet. So far in your life the only time you experienced that was when you were purposefully making the aircraft stall. What happens when you look at your airspeed indicator and it is well above the stall speed? How long will it take you to believe the aircraft is stalling? What happens when your crewmember recovers incorrectly by lifting up that flaps before you reduce the angle of attack and gain more airspeed? If you had 1500 hours of instructing or charter experience, you would have gone over stall recoveries so many times that you say them in your sleep. You experienced so many students pushing the wrong button or pulling the wrong lever that you developed the ability to slap someone’s hand the instant they try to do something wrong. If you had 1500 hours of 135 time, you would have likely experienced icing in small planes and learned when to expect it, how the aircraft will respond, and to respect it. If you do not have these experiences, you are not ready to be in the cockpit of an aircraft flying a demanding schedule for long hours with dozens of people.
It is the equivalent of someone getting a business degree and claiming that they are qualified to run General Electric. Sure you might have done great in training and plenty of others with the same experience have done it before, but that does not mean you are ready or that they were. Before you are the CEO of a national company, you start out as the manager at a small company, or maybe you start your own. The point is, start small so that your mistakes are small. If you really are a professional, getting another 1200 hours should not be too difficult.
You could still be a captain with 75 in type and just freshly upgraded to that position. What I am saying is maybe have a captain with LOTS of experience and leadership skills or perhaps require Captains to undergo specific training before they fly with an FO that has only XX number of hours. I'm merely playing devils advocate to understand why "everyone" thinks that there is no better way to accomplish the stated goal of that legislation. And wasn't the fundamental airmanship issue more with the captain than the first officer. After all, if the captain was proficient and competent, couldn't we agree that this may have never occurred?
The business degree and running GE is a bit of a stretch. We're talking about flying airplanes here not running a multi-national corporation with importance to national security, intelligence, and the welfare of this entire country. Anyway, I get what your saying, but I've got 1000 hrs not 250. I'm by no means the most knowledgeable about the airlines specifically and have no jet time but I can say with confidence that if you put me through the training and into the right seat of an RJ I would have NO problem. In a 1000 hours I have experienced a lot including; fatigue, management pressures, bad weather, mountain flying, and my fare share of malfunctions in a variety of aircraft. Whose to say John Doe who has only taught primary students for 2000 hrs and has an ATP is more competent than Joe Blow, who has 1200 hours but has more varied experience ( more than just flying within 50-100 NM of their airport in clear, blue, and a million with private students)?
People are too quick to judge skill by merely numbers in a logbook. If achieving experience was all it took to be competent in life we would all be more effective people with age but we know this to be false.
09-28-2010, 12:03 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,276
[quote=g4downin;877706] The business degree and running GE is a bit of a stretch. We're talking about flying airplanes here not running a multi-national corporation with importance to national security, intelligence, and the welfare of this entire country. [quote]
I agree that the 1500 hour bill does not fix everything, but it is a start. As far as comparing operating an airline under 121 and running a national business, I do think that they are comparable. Operating a large aircraft is something affects both national security and the welfare of this country now. Also, the decisions made in a cockpit are just as critical and as important as the ones made in the rooms of any company. The only difference is that meetings taking place in the cockpit cannot be postponed, access to outside information is limited, you do not have the luxury of having other workers double check your work, the time you have to make the decisions is much shorter, and peoples’ lives are directly affected by your actions. When you encounter a stall in an aircraft, you cannot call a meeting to determine the cause of the stall. You cannot assign someone to find information on tail stalls vs. wing stalls. You do not have much time to get insight from your only other coworker.
I agree that the 1500 hour bill does not fix everything, but it is a start. As far as comparing operating an airline under 121 and running a national business, I do think that they are comparable. Operating a large aircraft is something affects both national security and the welfare of this country now. Also, the decisions made in a cockpit are just as critical and as important as the ones made in the rooms of any company. The only difference is that meetings taking place in the cockpit cannot be postponed, access to outside information is limited, you do not have the luxury of having other workers double check your work, the time you have to make the decisions is much shorter, and peoples’ lives are directly affected by your actions. When you encounter a stall in an aircraft, you cannot call a meeting to determine the cause of the stall. You cannot assign someone to find information on tail stalls vs. wing stalls. You do not have much time to get insight from your only other coworker.
09-28-2010, 12:13 PM
#25
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
[quote=2StgTurbine;877739][quote=g4downin;877706] The business degree and running GE is a bit of a stretch. We're talking about flying airplanes here not running a multi-national corporation with importance to national security, intelligence, and the welfare of this entire country.
I agree that the 1500 hour bill does not fix everything, but it is a start. As far as comparing operating an airline under 121 and running a national business, I do think that they are comparable. Operating a large aircraft is something affects both national security and the welfare of this country now. Also, the decisions made in a cockpit are just as critical and as important as the ones made in the rooms of any company. The only difference is that meetings taking place in the cockpit cannot be postponed, access to outside information is limited, you do not have the luxury of having other workers double check your work, the time you have to make the decisions is much shorter, and peoples’ lives are directly affected by your actions. When you encounter a stall in an aircraft, you cannot call a meeting to determine the cause of the stall. You cannot assign someone to find information on tail stalls vs. wing stalls. You do not have much time to get insight from your only other coworker.
Thanks for the input. The best part about the forums is that they allow this kind of interaction and we can all learn from it.
I agree that the 1500 hour bill does not fix everything, but it is a start. As far as comparing operating an airline under 121 and running a national business, I do think that they are comparable. Operating a large aircraft is something affects both national security and the welfare of this country now. Also, the decisions made in a cockpit are just as critical and as important as the ones made in the rooms of any company. The only difference is that meetings taking place in the cockpit cannot be postponed, access to outside information is limited, you do not have the luxury of having other workers double check your work, the time you have to make the decisions is much shorter, and peoples’ lives are directly affected by your actions. When you encounter a stall in an aircraft, you cannot call a meeting to determine the cause of the stall. You cannot assign someone to find information on tail stalls vs. wing stalls. You do not have much time to get insight from your only other coworker.
10-01-2010, 09:12 AM
#26
Commercial Pilot
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 34
Lewis University
Originally Posted by woodfinx
May check Lewis University
Lewis is not a nice place to work. Nothing but instructors with poor personality and lack of people skills, not to mention they are all Lewis graduates which means they just got done with their training. Bunch of college punks is all Lewis instructors are. All I have heard from them is complaints on how little they make (I think it's somewhere around $15/hr).
In addition, I would advise any potential student pilots to stay away.
10-01-2010, 09:15 AM
#27
Commercial Pilot
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 34
Re: jobs
Originally Posted by g4downin
Left my job behind in Michigan a month ago to move to Chicago. Finding work has been difficult to say the least. Does anyone know of any places hiring in this area? Ideally within 1 hour of downtown Chicago. I have
1000TT
700 dual given
75 multi
CFI/CFII
ASEL/AMEL
Still instrument current and just renewed the CFI last week.
Any job will do; CFI, jump pilot, etc...
Thanks!
1000TT
700 dual given
75 multi
CFI/CFII
ASEL/AMEL
Still instrument current and just renewed the CFI last week.
Any job will do; CFI, jump pilot, etc...
Thanks!
Have you checked Clow Int'l Airport in Bolingbrook for CFI positions?
10-01-2010, 09:31 AM
#28
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by LR2205
Have you checked Clow Int'l Airport in Bolingbrook for CFI positions?
I have! In fact I have been calling A and M Aviation about every 2 weeks since I moved out here. I also have rented from them and have tried to get to know some of the people that work there. I wasn't aware of any other schools on the field. It seemed that they were the only outfit out there. Seems like a nice place to work though.
Thanks!
10-01-2010, 11:05 AM
#29
Respek
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,601
A&M is exceptional. The owner Jolann (SP) and Jim are great people. Did my instrument and commercial there and they bent over backwards to get my finished up during summer break. I cannot speak enough good things about that place.
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