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Part 91 and Low Time Jump pilots, crop dusting, and other Part 91 jobs

168TT in Middle Tennessee Area

Old 12-19-2010, 05:45 AM
  #21  
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Flight,

In his first post, dlb4a asked for help coming up with ways to build time. With a few exceptions, this was met with a string of negative comments and assumptions of untruths. If I was him, I would be pretty frustrated right now. How about we give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not a liar and that soon he is going to be a CFI, OK?

dlb4a

My first suggestion is to disregard any advice that infers you will never get hired, or you are not worthy or experienced enough. If I listened to that crap I would have never made it up the next rung in the ladder. For what it is worth, I earned my CFI at 250hrs (not much more than you have) and did just fine teaching students.

I would also suggest that you are going in the right direction. Getting a CFI job will build time while you are getting paid while you hone your interpersonal skills. Not only did I learn to deal with a wide variety of people, but by watching their mistakes, (the same ones I made) I learned to understand myself better too!

Once you are comfortable in your CFI role, add the CFII and the CFI-ME. This is not only good for your experience, but it will make you more attractive to employers.

If you can get hired at an FBO that also has a multi-engine aircraft charter department, it opens up more opportunities for advancement.

I think you see where I am going with this. It really depends on your attitude. If you want to be successful and you are willing to work hard at it, you will be.


Good luck on the CFI checkride!

Kevin
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:47 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by ryan1234 View Post
I'm sure you a cool guy and probably a great pilot - however, and this isn't anything personal, it's just that a pilot with 168TT has no business being a CFI.

There is a lot to learn out there!

+1,000 and I'd never let ANYBODY I cared about take lessons from somebody with those times... they haven't even scared themselves yet for crying out loud.

Go fly banners,traffic watch or jumpers... then when you have some experience, then try teaching others... it's kinda hard to teach, when all your "experience" is only theory from books.... credibility becomes an issue as well.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mason32 View Post
+1,000 and I'd never let ANYBODY I cared about take lessons from somebody with those times... they haven't even scared themselves yet for crying out loud.

Go fly banners,traffic watch or jumpers... then when you have some experience, then try teaching others... it's kinda hard to teach, when all your "experience" is only theory from books.... credibility becomes an issue as well.
Not to say that I don't think 168 hours is an awfully low amount of time to be a CFI, but telling someone to go do banner towing, traffic watch and jumpers is a lot easier said than done.

I have 285 hours and have been looking for/applying for all types of time building jobs with absolutely no luck. A lot of these places are requiring 500 hours TT and/or a lot of specific time like 30+ hours tail wheel, 30+ hours in 182 (or whatever specific type of plane they use), prior experience in that type of job, etc. It seems like the traditional time building jobs have evaporated for the most part - other than instructing.

In a perfect world I'd go fly traffic part-time while working on CFI and gain some flight experience outside of my training, have some fun, and make a little money on the side. I'm sure it would make me a better instructor. However, there are only a lucky few wet commercials getting these types of jobs without building time instructing first.

With that being said, one of the best instructors I have had was a very new CFI with less than 300 hours and one of the worst had over 1000 hours. Experience definitely helps, but a lot depends on attitude and drive. A burnt out instructor with a bunch of hours and a ****-poor attitude can be worse than a newbie.

just my $.02

And if you have any ideas of where a 285 hour commercial pilot can get one of these jobs let me know! I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:37 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by dlb4a View Post
I am another low time guy looking for some opportunities to build time. I am 168TT Commercial Multi - Instrument. I have an initial CFI checkride on Dec. 21.

Help would be greatly appreciated.
You need to go to the different schools and hand in your spotless resume on cotton-paper with a confident smile and a can do attitude. You'll have the certificates but not the hours to be a marketable CFI. Therefore you have to stand out in other ways, know your sh1t even beyond the expected CFI stuff. Get your AGI, offer to do free ground for a a week or two if they don't beleive that you are up for the task. Never stop studying. Don't be a beggar, be confident in your acquired skills but know your experiential limitations.

You'll get there.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:38 PM
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I recommend the military... Best situation would be to get a UPT slot at a guard unit (undergraduate pilot training)... The best way to do that is to just join the unit, taking any job, and then apply from within a year later. They tend to take their own first.

I think there are a lot of negative dream killers on this site, so take it all with a grain of salt.. With that being said, be careful about commenting on how skilled you are at 168 hours Most accidents occur from people being complacent or over confident.
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Old 12-26-2010, 03:47 PM
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Lots of haters bro, ignore them. Take it in stride and keep pluggin away at your career. I flight instructed with low time, and at 29 i was in the left seat of a 47.
With that said, stay humble, stay positive, and like someone said never stop learning, never think you know it all. I used to scour trade-a-plane thinking I could skip over the instructing to build time, never happened and im glad. Instructing gave me a very good base as an aviator. From there I learned a great deal in small twins, single pilot, east coast. Wouldn't give up that experience either, even though it was the toughest flying ive ever had to do. Experience is expensive, but if you pay the price you wont regret it. One key thing to remember someone passed along to me when i started flying night freight; NEVER and I mean NEVER let dispatch, scheduling, or your chief pilot talk you into doing something unsafe or that you are uncomfortable doing. Good luck, welcome to the club.
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:58 PM
  #27  
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Well, i'm torn between Asher and everyone else on here...I actually just mentioned to my wife (non-pilot) that there's a guy online with 168 hrs and about to nab his CFI...her response "that doesn't seem like near enough time". On the other side man, that's awesome if you've got all the ratings done and are polishing off your instructor certification with under 200 hrs in an airplane, and incredibly impressive.

When i went through school there was one guy i took private pilot ground school with who was a natural stick, and had the ability to absorb flying information like a sponge. He knocked out his private in a semester, his instrument in the next, and had his commercial finished off before sophomore year was through. When i was working hard at getting my commercial he was already picking up flight students and building time to head off to the airlines.

So if i was in your boat, i'd keep plugging away at resume's, knock the sox of them at interviews, and really push for that FIRST job...That's going to be your foot in the door, after that it'll be "easier" sailing. I do think it's going to be tough to find an instructing gig at those hours, but i'd be banging down the door in Murfeesburo trying to knock out a deal.

PS, the cost of aviation i guess has gotten rediculous. I started college in 01, graduated in 05 with a B.S. in aviation tech from CMSU (now UCM). 60k for everything which included my undergrad, flight costs were appx 30k...and i still consider that crazy...Private-CFII.
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:40 PM
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I haven't looked in my logbook but I'm pretty sure I had just under 168 when I got my CFI. What gave me an edge was that the school I got my CFI from offered a guaranteed interview once I was done with the course. I began working pretty soon after that.

Looking back now, I sure didn't know nearly as much as I should've. Much of my own learning was on the job. While it did improve my own knowledge, the process was not on the better end for the student. I still worked to provide the best quality instruction I could, but there's a significant difference between teaching from experience vs. the textbook.

Not sure where you're getting your CFI from, but if they are hiring, that's probably going to be your best bet. You really need to find employers that know you and know your proficiency to fly. Networking is key and you need to show people to look beyond the hours.
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:53 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by dlb4a View Post
Here is the breakdown from my resume.

Total………………………...168
Diamond Star 20…………..1.0 (spin training for CFI)
Pilot in Command…….…67
Diamond Star 40……….121.8
Single Engine…………….154.8
Piper Arrow 28R…………..26.8
Piper Seminole 44………..13.2
Multi Engine……………….13.2


(logbook has 33.8 sim hours)

At Middle Tennessee State University the flight school's training is predominately all proficiency based. If one can get into the aircraft and show that they can handle the regs's requirements then they can advanced; however we do have an intensive syllabus which includes: Private Pilot Cert, Instru Rating, Comm. Cert, Multi, CFI, CFII, MEI, High Performance, and Tail Wheel.

I may not have a load of experience flying airplanes but I am certain I can handle a greater difficultly level of flying than you gentlemen give me credit for. My initial CFI checkride is Dec. 21, 2010 (next Tuesday).

Again, If anyone has helpful or considerate information to pass along, I would greatly appreciate it.

http://www.mtsu.edu/aerospace (For those who need HARD facts.)
We as pilots have a tendency to put our feet in our mouths occasionally, so just take it with a grain of salt. Many who speak in absolutes, especially with regard to part 141 are misinformed. For instance, it is feasible for a pilot to acquire commercial certificate(s) with less than 190TT. It would have to be done under the "Special Curriculum" section of 14CFR Part 141 and would also have to be "blessed" by said 141 pilot school's Principal Operations Inspector/FAA, which would be a feat in and of itself, but not impossible.

On the good side, congrats on completing your commercial certificate(s) within such low time, I do hope the quality of instruction was high (an occurence which is not very common anymore).

It is an extremely hard market for pilots of all levels at the moment, so just breathe in and out.

First, I believe the only way you are going to be successful with your credentials as they currently are listed is to look at your certificates as a license to continue learning. This is the same truth that all pilots should abide buy, but few actually do. Likewise, by "successful" I do not simply mean financially.

Secondly (on the more negative side) I highly doubt you will be able to find a financially viable flying career (one that will fully sustain you) with your current qualifications. The easiest reason for this is insurance. I personally don't know of any insurance provider who would insure a PIC providing commercial services with that low of time without the candidate having gone through some formal training program centered around said aircraft's make and model (Flight Safety, SimCom, etc.) followed by some sort of pseudo-extensive initial operating experience (IOE) regime. These are high $$ training outlets and are most commonly paid for by a pilot's employer, but can be acquired independently. Now, miracles do happen everyday, so never stop looking and networking!

My most immediate advice would be to try to acquire some right-seat time in an aircraft certified for single-pilot commercial operations, such that minimal risk and/or cost is added to the operator. If it's in a turbine aircraft, such as a King Air (90, 200, 350, etc.) or Pilatus (PC12) or Cessna Citation CJ1,2,3,4, or other, even better (for you)! These opportunities are most likely unpaid, and under part 91, but are completely loggable if you are rated in the airplane. Also, to obtain an SIC type (another notch on the resume belt, albeit not a very powerfull one) in an aircraft like a CJ3 is very simple, if you do find someone willing to let you occupy the right seat occasionally.

That being said, you will most likely need a second job to pay the bills (also something very common in aviation).

Third, and only if you are interested and have the desire to learn and teach, pursue all three of your CFI certificates/ratings. The initial alone will not do much for you in the long run. Also, having all of your CFI ratings is a selling point when looking for that right seat time, as many of these pilots currently pay for flight reviews/IPC's, etc. and you may be able to barter with them. But, don't become a CFI just to acquire hours. There are far too many of those pilots out there and it is doing more damage and physical harm than good.

It won't take you very long to reach the point where a 135 operator will look at you (Ameriflight, etc.), if that is the route you wish to take up the ladder. Personally, I find single-pilot IFR a bit too risky for my taste, but to each their own.

Anyway, just some words of advise from a fellow aviator.

Good Luck and God Speed!
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Old 12-26-2010, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 14CFR View Post
We as pilots have a tendency to put our feet in our mouths occasionally, so just take it with a grain of salt. Many who speak in absolutes, especially with regard to part 141 are misinformed. For instance, it is feasible for a pilot to acquire commercial certificate(s) with less than 190TT. It would have to be done under the "Special Curriculum" section of 14CFR Part 141 and would also have to be "blessed" by said 141 pilot school's Principal Operations Inspector/FAA, which would be a feat in and of itself, but not impossible.

On the good side, congrats on completing your commercial certificate(s) within such low time, I do hope the quality of instruction was high (an occurence which is not very common anymore).

It is an extremely hard market for pilots of all levels at the moment, so just breathe in and out.

First, I believe the only way you are going to be successful with your credentials as they currently are listed is to look at your certificates as a license to continue learning. This is the same truth that all pilots should abide buy, but few actually do. Likewise, by "successful" I do not simply mean financially.

Secondly (on the more negative side) I highly doubt you will be able to find a financially viable flying career (one that will fully sustain you) with your current qualifications. The easiest reason for this is insurance. I personally don't know of any insurance provider who would insure a PIC providing commercial services with that low of time without the candidate having gone through some formal training program centered around said aircraft's make and model (Flight Safety, SimCom, etc.) followed by some sort of pseudo-extensive initial operating experience (IOE) regime. These are high $$ training outlets and are most commonly paid for by a pilot's employer, but can be acquired independently. Now, miracles do happen everyday, so never stop looking and networking!

My most immediate advice would be to try to acquire some right-seat time in an aircraft certified for single-pilot commercial operations, such that minimal risk and/or cost is added to the operator. If it's in a turbine aircraft, such as a King Air (90, 200, 350, etc.) or Pilatus (PC12) or Cessna Citation CJ1,2,3,4, or other, even better (for you)! These opportunities are most likely unpaid, and under part 91, but are completely loggable if you are rated in the airplane. Also, to obtain an SIC type (another notch on the resume belt, albeit not a very powerfull one) in an aircraft like a CJ3 is very simple, if you do find someone willing to let you occupy the right seat occasionally.

That being said, you will most likely need a second job to pay the bills (also something very common in aviation).

Third, and only if you are interested and have the desire to learn and teach, pursue all three of your CFI certificates/ratings. The initial alone will not do much for you in the long run. Also, having all of your CFI ratings is a selling point when looking for that right seat time, as many of these pilots currently pay for flight reviews/IPC's, etc. and you may be able to barter with them. But, don't become a CFI just to acquire hours. There are far too many of those pilots out there and it is doing more damage and physical harm than good.

It won't take you very long to reach the point where a 135 operator will look at you (Ameriflight, etc.), if that is the route you wish to take up the ladder. Personally, I find single-pilot IFR a bit too risky for my taste, but to each their own.

Anyway, just some words of advise from a fellow aviator.

Good Luck and God Speed!


This folks.....this is an incredible post! we need more ppl helping others...

The only advice I can add is: Do NOT let anyone bring you down, if they say you cant, you wont, prove them wrong! Life is about perseverance and it is commitment, hard work, patience and endurance.
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