Airline or Wait/hope
#31
Hoss
Hoss,
Please forgive me but I get confused. You hold many of the same positions as I do in regards to the industry, but when I post the same you criticize me. I don't get it. On one hand you acknowledge the same shortcomings yet on another want to justify it by claiming that you love it.
Is aviation a martyrs pursuit or a profession? If it is a profession then its return versus reward needs to be evaluated. Increasingly major airline pilot wages are coming very close to that of a regional pilot and aviation in general is closing the gap with grocery store wages.
I can not see it as a benefit to anyone to promote aviation as worthy vision quest. It is a career. It takes sacrifice to get there and needs to be compensated in the form of wages and benefits. I get that you want to try and find a positive if nothing more than to make yourself feel better but when does it become self defeating?
Just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend who works for the post office. He is in his early 40's. Lives an upper middle class lifestyle in a nice home with his wife and two daughters. I know that he earns a bit more than 50K and expects to fully retire in ten years. His life and family are intact. He has no student loans to pay back and is about as secure as anyone can be in today's market.
How are we supposed to feel good about being airline pilots when it obviously is crumbling under our feet? How can you be anything other than completely dissuasive in regards to an aviation career after the beating you have already taken?
I am here just trying to understand.
Skyhigh
Please forgive me but I get confused. You hold many of the same positions as I do in regards to the industry, but when I post the same you criticize me. I don't get it. On one hand you acknowledge the same shortcomings yet on another want to justify it by claiming that you love it.
Is aviation a martyrs pursuit or a profession? If it is a profession then its return versus reward needs to be evaluated. Increasingly major airline pilot wages are coming very close to that of a regional pilot and aviation in general is closing the gap with grocery store wages.
I can not see it as a benefit to anyone to promote aviation as worthy vision quest. It is a career. It takes sacrifice to get there and needs to be compensated in the form of wages and benefits. I get that you want to try and find a positive if nothing more than to make yourself feel better but when does it become self defeating?
Just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend who works for the post office. He is in his early 40's. Lives an upper middle class lifestyle in a nice home with his wife and two daughters. I know that he earns a bit more than 50K and expects to fully retire in ten years. His life and family are intact. He has no student loans to pay back and is about as secure as anyone can be in today's market.
How are we supposed to feel good about being airline pilots when it obviously is crumbling under our feet? How can you be anything other than completely dissuasive in regards to an aviation career after the beating you have already taken?
I am here just trying to understand.
Skyhigh
#33
Hoss,
Please forgive me but I get confused. You hold many of the same positions as I do in regards to the industry, but when I post the same you criticize me. I don't get it. On one hand you acknowledge the same shortcomings yet on another want to justify it by claiming that you love it.
Is aviation a martyrs pursuit or a profession? If it is a profession then its return versus reward needs to be evaluated. Increasingly major airline pilot wages are coming very close to that of a regional pilot and aviation in general is closing the gap with grocery store wages.
I can not see it as a benefit to anyone to promote aviation as worthy vision quest. It is a career. It takes sacrifice to get there and needs to be compensated in the form of wages and benefits. I get that you want to try and find a positive if nothing more than to make yourself feel better but when does it become self defeating?
Just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend who works for the post office. He is in his early 40's. Lives an upper middle class lifestyle in a nice home with his wife and two daughters. I know that he earns a bit more than 50K and expects to fully retire in ten years. His life and family are intact. He has no student loans to pay back and is about as secure as anyone can be in today's market.
How are we supposed to feel good about being airline pilots when it obviously is crumbling under our feet? How can you be anything other than completely dissuasive in regards to an aviation career after the beating you have already taken?
I am here just trying to understand.
Skyhigh
Please forgive me but I get confused. You hold many of the same positions as I do in regards to the industry, but when I post the same you criticize me. I don't get it. On one hand you acknowledge the same shortcomings yet on another want to justify it by claiming that you love it.
Is aviation a martyrs pursuit or a profession? If it is a profession then its return versus reward needs to be evaluated. Increasingly major airline pilot wages are coming very close to that of a regional pilot and aviation in general is closing the gap with grocery store wages.
I can not see it as a benefit to anyone to promote aviation as worthy vision quest. It is a career. It takes sacrifice to get there and needs to be compensated in the form of wages and benefits. I get that you want to try and find a positive if nothing more than to make yourself feel better but when does it become self defeating?
Just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend who works for the post office. He is in his early 40's. Lives an upper middle class lifestyle in a nice home with his wife and two daughters. I know that he earns a bit more than 50K and expects to fully retire in ten years. His life and family are intact. He has no student loans to pay back and is about as secure as anyone can be in today's market.
How are we supposed to feel good about being airline pilots when it obviously is crumbling under our feet? How can you be anything other than completely dissuasive in regards to an aviation career after the beating you have already taken?
I am here just trying to understand.
Skyhigh
You, I, and Airhoss have had this same conversation a hundred times over Skyhigh.
I thought you had moved on from the Post Office too. If you keep using it then you are going to have to come back on and change all of your stories when the Post Office comes crashing down in failure. Grocery store. Now there is a new approach.
Let it rest.
USMCFLYR
#34
YOU are not to be included in the airline pilot group. You left that career behind a long time ago. Plus, you never met the published experience minimums to apply for a major airline job.
I never took this job to make a lot money. I pursued it for the sheer adventure. It's never let me down yet. Well, there was that one year flying SD3-60's in the northeast. Even that was an adventure of sorts. Or at least an experience.
Let it go. By your own admission you were never cut out for this life anyway.
#35
Can Do, Will Do.
It seems to me that people are compensated in the order of magnitude for what they can do for the outside world and for what they will do. A doctor for example must hold the mental acumen and determination to make it through 8 years of higher education plus years of internship. Most people can’t do that for many reasons. As a result Doctors are scarce and tend to earn more than those who have not made the same sacrifices. At the other end of the spectrum I suppose is the plumber. Few people would crawl under a rat and spider infested house to cut open a plugged sewer pipe that they know is full of repulsive waste. As a result they too are in relative demand for minimal career investment.
At one time aviation had barriers to entry. An applicant needed to fit inside of a height and weight bracket, have 20/20 uncorrected vision, be under the age of 30, college educated, have no nepotism conflicts and be from a specific social economic class. The result was that the pool of applicants was greatly restricted. Airlines had to compete for applicants. Pilots held the upper hand in negotiations. Only a few could do the job and there were even less that would do the job. Wages were much higher. Pilots were respected.
Changes in the hiring practices have blown the doors open at the airlines. Now a pilot can be fat, skinny, short or tall. New hires can be 22 or 62. Wear coke bottle glasses and be from a mail order college. These developments have been great for the airlines and diversity but bad for the profession. Now a pilot is compensated more for what they will do over what they can do. Flying is considered to be fun so pilots will do a lot to stay in the saddle.
As a result pay is going to keep plummeting until we reach the breakeven point of an income that is so low that career entry is restricted because only few can afford to do it anymore. (We could be there already) At that point the airlines will switch to a European style of cadet program. Young people will go straight from college to the majors to be trained for a specific operation on a single type. They will be paid minimum wage until they have flown off most of a decade. As with other impassioned youthful crusades like the Peace Corps, social or missionary work most will quit to find a real job. The lasting legacy of their airline pilot years will be to produce hair raising stories of their impoverished and misguided youth at dinner parties.
Some will be encouraged others not so much. My generation had to pay our own way through college and flight school. We did not have access to student loans to perpetuate the illusion. I had to earn each dollar for my flight training. I am not ashamed to say that my primary aviation career interest was as a job. I need to make a living and to have a life as the product of my efforts.
Skyhigh
At one time aviation had barriers to entry. An applicant needed to fit inside of a height and weight bracket, have 20/20 uncorrected vision, be under the age of 30, college educated, have no nepotism conflicts and be from a specific social economic class. The result was that the pool of applicants was greatly restricted. Airlines had to compete for applicants. Pilots held the upper hand in negotiations. Only a few could do the job and there were even less that would do the job. Wages were much higher. Pilots were respected.
Changes in the hiring practices have blown the doors open at the airlines. Now a pilot can be fat, skinny, short or tall. New hires can be 22 or 62. Wear coke bottle glasses and be from a mail order college. These developments have been great for the airlines and diversity but bad for the profession. Now a pilot is compensated more for what they will do over what they can do. Flying is considered to be fun so pilots will do a lot to stay in the saddle.
As a result pay is going to keep plummeting until we reach the breakeven point of an income that is so low that career entry is restricted because only few can afford to do it anymore. (We could be there already) At that point the airlines will switch to a European style of cadet program. Young people will go straight from college to the majors to be trained for a specific operation on a single type. They will be paid minimum wage until they have flown off most of a decade. As with other impassioned youthful crusades like the Peace Corps, social or missionary work most will quit to find a real job. The lasting legacy of their airline pilot years will be to produce hair raising stories of their impoverished and misguided youth at dinner parties.
Some will be encouraged others not so much. My generation had to pay our own way through college and flight school. We did not have access to student loans to perpetuate the illusion. I had to earn each dollar for my flight training. I am not ashamed to say that my primary aviation career interest was as a job. I need to make a living and to have a life as the product of my efforts.
Skyhigh
#36
Laid off
YOU are not to be included in the airline pilot group. You left that career behind a long time ago. Plus, you never met the published experience minimums to apply for a major airline job.
I never took this job to make a lot money. I pursued it for the sheer adventure. It's never let me down yet. Well, there was that one year flying SD3-60's in the northeast. Even that was an adventure of sorts. Or at least an experience.
Let it go. By your own admission you were never cut out for this life anyway.
I never took this job to make a lot money. I pursued it for the sheer adventure. It's never let me down yet. Well, there was that one year flying SD3-60's in the northeast. Even that was an adventure of sorts. Or at least an experience.
Let it go. By your own admission you were never cut out for this life anyway.
We are all glad that you have enjoyed your career however I implore you to consider the perspective of the pilot who is considering initiating a career today. At my home airport the price for an hour in a Cessna 152 is $108/hour. The first few years wages at UAL pay less than that of a mailman.
Skyhigh
#37
Let it rest
No you're not.
You, I, and Airhoss have had this same conversation a hundred times over Skyhigh.
I thought you had moved on from the Post Office too. If you keep using it then you are going to have to come back on and change all of your stories when the Post Office comes crashing down in failure. Grocery store. Now there is a new approach.
Let it rest.
USMCFLYR
You, I, and Airhoss have had this same conversation a hundred times over Skyhigh.
I thought you had moved on from the Post Office too. If you keep using it then you are going to have to come back on and change all of your stories when the Post Office comes crashing down in failure. Grocery store. Now there is a new approach.
Let it rest.
USMCFLYR
Skyhigh
#38
Changes in the hiring practices have blown the doors open at the airlines. Now a pilot can be fat, skinny, short or tall. New hires can be 22 or 62. Wear coke bottle glasses and be from a mail order college. These developments have been great for the airlines and diversity but bad for the profession. Now a pilot is compensated more for what they will do over what they can do. Flying is considered to be fun so pilots will do a lot to stay in the saddle.
My generation had to pay our own way through college and flight school. We did not have access to student loans to perpetuate the illusion. I had to earn each dollar for my flight training. I am not ashamed to say that my primary aviation career interest was as a job. I need to make a living and to have a life as the product of my efforts.
Skyhigh
My generation had to pay our own way through college and flight school. We did not have access to student loans to perpetuate the illusion. I had to earn each dollar for my flight training. I am not ashamed to say that my primary aviation career interest was as a job. I need to make a living and to have a life as the product of my efforts.
Skyhigh
Why couldn't you get a student loan? Weren't you attending an accredited school?
Why can't you just face the fact that you were never cut out to be a professional pilot? I could never be a doctor, lawyer, accountant, broker, etc.
My next door neighbor is a bond trader (partner in a firm). He makes about 6-7 million/yr. My interest in his job: zero. His interest in my job: zero. It's a beautiful world.
I'll be thinking of you when we rocket out of the overcast into that star-filled sky tonight, Sky.
#40
I will let it rest when you guys let it rest. I find it interesting that my opposition is narrowing down to just a handful of dedicated hardliners. It is hardly interesting to post here anymore. It seems as though the rest of the world is coming around. However I can always count on you guys and for that I am truly thankful.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
You love to point out your converts.
I'd say most have given up trying to find common ground with you because you are beyond rational comprehension.
Nope. I'll be around to point out your rants and grandiose exaggerations.
The middle ground needs representation too - not just your 'the sky is falling', 'black sunday', 'the world is ending', 'everyone in aviation hates their spouse and kid' type of attitude.
Notice how some of us don't keep posting the same over and over. we let it ride. You on the other hand will even start a NEW THREAD with the same garbage over and over.
USMCFLYR