Co-pilot not rated in jet
 

Quick question... out of my area of knowledge.
Hawker jet needs to go on a trip this week.
Co-pilot cannot go.
If I'm not typed in the jet, can I legally occupy the right seat for the trip?
It's being flown Part 91 within the CONUS.

Co-pilot not rated in jet
 

Yes. Look up SIC requirements under part 91. Without the SIC or better type you won't be able to go to a lot of international destinations.

No, but you do need to meet the training requirements on type in FAR 61.55, including 3 take-off and landings, some OEI work and systems/procedures ground instruction. Not, just jump in and go.

GF

Oh boy another SIC-logging question. We specialize in those here. Rick, Wasp, and Noy are a few of our resident experts on this topic.

> Is it a single-pilot certified jet with the PIC single pilot-approved? Call out the type and model for best results.
> If it is a single-pilot certified airplane, does the PIC you are using have that particular endorsement on his type rating? Some jets can be had either or both ways. You need to ask (or look up) what status your captain is.
> Part 91 all legs, right? Part 135 is another animal.
> What does the insurance company say about it? Not the FAA law of course, but still important and often the most important thing. There may be a company- specific Part 91 OpSpec the insurance company requires.
> Is the CA an instructor of some sort?

Thanks very much.

Not an SIC logging question...

It's a question about minimum qualifications to sit in the right seat for a non-type rated FO. OP stated aircraft type is a Hawker.



Presumably this trip has passengers or cargo onboard? (As opposed to flying empty to a MX facility for an inspection?)

All that has been said is good info; however with your apparent background, Etc. You might be suprised at how simple this might be accomplished, especially being part 91; it could simply involve the CP or owner, Etc. making a quick phone call to the insurance folks and possibly the Feds. Have them send a fax or some other legal form of correspondence and you could be good to go. Speaking from experience...

Additional... It would be sad if you were otherwise given the green light but were hung up over the civilian high altitude/pressurized aircraft endorsement...

As galaxy flyer stated you have to meet the requirements of 61.55. That can be accomplished in a couple of hours, but carries with it the expense of operating the aircraft. Once accomplished you can have the training PIC write an endorsement and take it to the FISDO to get an SIC type on your certificate. The SIC type is NOT required for a CONUS flight however. Just a plus if you want it later on for international.

The second bolded part about a high altitude endorsement doesn't apply, as it is only required to act as PIC.

You are correct, I'm wiped out/need some sleep; shouldn't have chimed in when in this state...

Come on, FO = SIC here. You can put your pet marmots in the right seat if no other pilot is required, but the question is who is qualified, and if they are qualified the next question should be are they necessary. That's SIC logging, bar none. We have been up and down about people logging time that isn't required to legally fly some airplane on the right side. Maybe Huggy doesn't care about claiming his hours, having flown U2s and all, but he should at least know if he is legal and required in this one. Sounds like if they had a regular guy they need one is this Hawker.

Ok, like which one? Some may be single-pilot certified. Are you sure none are?

Hawker = two pilots

The beech premier is single pilot.

Huggy has more than enough hours and type ratings in his logbook, both USAF and civilian -- I am sure he's not concerned with being able to log the time or how to legally log it.

He's interested to know if the flight can be legally flown with him up there as an ATP multi but not with a type in the aircraft.

If you're flying a live leg, I don't see how this can be done legally without meeting 61.55 first. I'm unaware of any single-pilot Hawkers.

That said, it doesn't seem to stop many contract guys around here.

dude, I know we get alot of those "logging" SIC questions, but you are reading waaaay to far into this post! Unwind the panties and have a beer!;)

Amen, RTFQ!

If Huggy is fine with a general answer such as "look it up in FAR 61.55 & have fun flying Hawkers" then great. But we get enough of these SIC logging questions to justify talking it over a little bit more. It's too early for beer here anyway. :)

This should be easy. I did this a couple of months ago to pick up a trip that needed to be covered. Since the FO is required, and you are taking passengers, he needs to get 3 TO's and landings in, and have the proper certificates, ie. ME Land, Instrument rating. That should make him legal to fly in the FAAs eyes. Insurance is something else. The manager of the aircraft should be able to talk to them to see if the sit in pilot has the quals they are looking for.

Champeen07

Please review 61.55, it's a bit complicated than 3 T-Gs.

GF

§*61.55***Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.(b)

Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for an aircraft after satisfactorily completing the second-in-command familiarization training requirements under paragraph (b) of this section in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with §*61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must present a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or Examiner.

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1, and present the application to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner.

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710-1.

(6) The applicant must appear in person at a FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710-1.

(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.

(e) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for the type of aircraft after satisfactorily completing an approved second-in-command training program, proficiency check, or competency check under subpart K of part 91, part 121, part 125, or part 135, as appropriate, in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with §*61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must provide a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to an FAA Flight Standards District Office, an Examiner, or an Aircrew Program Designee.

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1, and present the application to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee.

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710-1.

(6) The applicant must appear in person at an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710-1.(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.

(f) The familiarization training requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to a person who is:

(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;

(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;

(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or

(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §*91.109 of this chapter.

(g) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:

(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and

(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(h) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:

(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and

(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(i) The training under paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section and the training, proficiency check, and competency check under paragraph (e) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved training course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter or under subpart K of part 91, part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(j) When an applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft receives all the training in a flight simulator, that applicant must satisfactorily complete one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought. This requirement does not apply to an applicant who completes a proficiency check under part 121 or competency check under subpart K, part 91, part 125, or part 135 for the particular type of aircraft.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40898, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-109, 68 FR 54559, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61-113, 70 FR 45271, Aug. 4, 2005; Amdt. 61-109, 70 FR 61890, Oct. 27, 2005; Amdt. 61-124, 74 FR 42550, Aug. 21, 2009; Amdt. 61-128, 76 FR 54105, Aug. 31, 2011]

That's an advantage to living on Z time, I get a 5 hour head start.

Wow so what everyone is wanting to know is can a guy, who's never flown the a/c..Has no experience/knowledge of any systems, limitations of that a/c....has absolutely zero training on the handling characteristics of the a/c.. Sit in the right seat.. ?

Hell why not just have him sit in the back, that's about as much help he'd be in an emergency...

And people wonder why professional 121 pilots look down upon rag tag 91 outfits

Kingairfun

I don't think your opinion jives with what FAR 61.55 or some of us said. FAR 61.55 specifies the training and experience, what's your point?

GF

I'm sure that with Huggy's flight experience that he would have pretty good SA about what is happening and probably be just fine on the radios too if an emergency happened.
Many professional -121 guys look down on *anyone* else because they look at themselves as the cat's meow of aviation.
Otherwise - as GF pointed out - the regs pretty much lay it out.

Regs, which pretty much govern FAR 121 training. Yes, their is a approved training program, but airline F/O training is pretty much 61.55. BTW, that's why so many RJ F/Os are crying the blues about getting ATPs.

I'll bet 91 operators have a greater percentage of fully type-rated ATP holders than the regionals.

GF

How many rag tag 121 operators are there out there? Are you saying that 91 corporate pilots are less professional than you because you're a 121 pilot, or that 121 pilots are immune to stupidity? Everyone, whether it be 91, 121, or 135, has made a questionable decision at one point. If that isn't arrogance then I don't know what is.

I grew up in corporate aviation and the one thing that always bothers my old man is that he is grouped into the same category as a cessna 150 even though he flies Gulfstreams. And how 121 pilots think they aren't, like you said, professionals. A part 91 pilot has a lot more planning to do than any 121 pilot when they go on trips.

Just my 2 cents.

61.55 explains it all for a SIC qualification. Follow the reg, and document the ground and flight training well. That way if you chose to visit a FSDO to put the SIC on your certificate, you won't encounter any issues.

Insurance is a whole other ballgame. Some of the stuff out there is legitimate, some of it is BS. Experienced both sides of the insurance world when I flew Part 91.

Having said that, and having done a 61.55 before, the training you put fourth determines the end result. Spend a lot of time with the manuals. Study systems, memory items, limitations, normal and emergency and abnormal procedures, etc. Spend some quality time with your trainer doing ground and learn the airplane. Go up and do some quality flying in the plane in excess of just the basics of 61.55. The more, the better, and really think about the type you're going to be flying. Doing the bare minimums doesn't cut it sometimes.

Have fun! Always cool to have another type to put in the logbook.