Are CFI Jobs Becoming a Pyramid Scheme?
03-30-2015, 12:19 AM
#61
Team Chemtrail
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: CRJ
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Where is the implied promise?
I have stood in the front ranks of the union and gone toe to toe with management over those issues and others.
I was once told by an employer, when I demanded the raise that had been promised, that I should consider myself fortunate to be paid anything. In fact, the employer told me, for the education that I was getting on the job, by all rights I should have been paying him.
I quit.
Don't like your job in aviation? Cry about it, invent imaginary conspiracy themes, or find a job that you do like. It's simple. Do I feel compassion for those who select jobs that treat employees badly, or that pay poorly? Lest one forget I've worked up through the ranks myself and have unquestionably been there and done that, I understand. I understand what it's like to struggle to find work, I understand what it's like to endure low pay, and I understand what it's like to start over. I understand what it's like to move to find work, to learn not all is as advertised, to be exploited.
I'm also not afraid to walk away from a job because of maintenance, management, pay, conditions, politics, or any other reason that I deem appropriate. I never take a job that I'm not willing to walk away from at the drop at a hat, and I have.
I have never got a job in this business because of someone I know. Never because I had an "in" somewhere. Never because one was owed to me. Never because there was a path laid out to follow. Every job I've had in aviation, whether agricultural utility work or firefighting or airline or corporate or charter or ambulance, etc, has been because I didn't wait for the work to come to me. I beat the bushes, applied, and was hired. I've moved for work. Frequently worked extra, and other jobs. Whatever I needed to do. I didn't expect compassion or sympathy, and didn't rely on a perceived sense of entitlement.
Many years ago I was invited to a job interview for a large regional. In the interview I asked if it was correct that the company was charging new-hires for their training. I was told yes, but I had enough experience that the requirement didn't apply to me. I was asked if I had a problem with that. I said yes, walked out, and caught a flight home. Had I chosen to stay there, complete the interview and take the job, I'd have been ratifying the low pay and the buying of jobs.
Another employer once approached me with a theoretical. The company was looking at taking on first officers who paid their way and their training. They wanted to call it an "intern" program. I told the employer I'd walk in a heartbeat if I caught wind of such a scheme. then the employer asked if I'd be willing to pay for a GIII type rating, to get a quick upgrade to that airplane. I said no. He was willing more than triple my salary if I would do that, and I said no. Absolutely not. They didn't institute a pay to play program while I was there but I quit soon after, anyway. I don't support that sort of thing, not with my money, time, or my labor.
.
I have stood in the front ranks of the union and gone toe to toe with management over those issues and others.
I was once told by an employer, when I demanded the raise that had been promised, that I should consider myself fortunate to be paid anything. In fact, the employer told me, for the education that I was getting on the job, by all rights I should have been paying him.
I quit.
Don't like your job in aviation? Cry about it, invent imaginary conspiracy themes, or find a job that you do like. It's simple. Do I feel compassion for those who select jobs that treat employees badly, or that pay poorly? Lest one forget I've worked up through the ranks myself and have unquestionably been there and done that, I understand. I understand what it's like to struggle to find work, I understand what it's like to endure low pay, and I understand what it's like to start over. I understand what it's like to move to find work, to learn not all is as advertised, to be exploited.
I'm also not afraid to walk away from a job because of maintenance, management, pay, conditions, politics, or any other reason that I deem appropriate. I never take a job that I'm not willing to walk away from at the drop at a hat, and I have.
I have never got a job in this business because of someone I know. Never because I had an "in" somewhere. Never because one was owed to me. Never because there was a path laid out to follow. Every job I've had in aviation, whether agricultural utility work or firefighting or airline or corporate or charter or ambulance, etc, has been because I didn't wait for the work to come to me. I beat the bushes, applied, and was hired. I've moved for work. Frequently worked extra, and other jobs. Whatever I needed to do. I didn't expect compassion or sympathy, and didn't rely on a perceived sense of entitlement.
Many years ago I was invited to a job interview for a large regional. In the interview I asked if it was correct that the company was charging new-hires for their training. I was told yes, but I had enough experience that the requirement didn't apply to me. I was asked if I had a problem with that. I said yes, walked out, and caught a flight home. Had I chosen to stay there, complete the interview and take the job, I'd have been ratifying the low pay and the buying of jobs.
Another employer once approached me with a theoretical. The company was looking at taking on first officers who paid their way and their training. They wanted to call it an "intern" program. I told the employer I'd walk in a heartbeat if I caught wind of such a scheme. then the employer asked if I'd be willing to pay for a GIII type rating, to get a quick upgrade to that airplane. I said no. He was willing more than triple my salary if I would do that, and I said no. Absolutely not. They didn't institute a pay to play program while I was there but I quit soon after, anyway. I don't support that sort of thing, not with my money, time, or my labor.
.
03-31-2015, 08:31 AM
#65
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I agree
Originally Posted by FlyingSlowly
I must admit I'm new here, but want to throw a different perspective into the mix on "building flight time." [Skip to the bold to avoid my time-building CFI advice rant.]
It seems like the advice is always to work as a CFI if you want to build hours. In every thread where someone wants other ideas to avoid it, they get told to 'suck it up' (or similar). The perspective is often juvenile: "I did it, you should too"...almost like it's a mandatory right of passage in aviation. But that's not the point here. Please don't respond with the virtues of having worked as a CFI.
I GET IT. You really only know something well if you can teach it...blah, blah, blah... I have taught high school for multiple years. Both physics and math. I have a B.S. in Physics. I know about teaching, and am not afraid of challenging technical or complex subject matter. I think if I were to have continued teaching full-time A FEW MORE YEARS, I would really learn how to be an exceptional teacher. For the same reason I would never go to a low-time CFI (anyone with less than 1,000 hours or so of dual already given). A Flight Instructor should be the pinnacle of aviation, not a career stepping stone...and below the Regionals at that! But I digress...
My point is different. The problem with the old "CFI pipeline" model is simple: there is no way (mathematically speaking) student pilot training will be able to support even a fraction of the pilots working toward airline careers within the newly mandated climate of 1500 hours. There are simply too few who are both interested and able to begin flight lessons (either with career aspirations or for business/leisure flying). Look at the student pilot data...not too promising lately.
Furthermore, there have never been more CFIs with active certificates. The FAA data says so. Right around 99,000 at present (2013 data). This number was 64,000 in 1990. That's the supply side. Now for the demand. There were about 40,000 NEW private pilots created in 1990. And the most recent data from 2013? Less than 16,000 new private pilots. Not looking good for anyone wanting to work as a CFI!!! These numbers mean that the ratio of NEW private pilots to active CFIs has decreased by a factor of four. In other words, there are four (4) times fewer students per CFI now than in 1990 (using PPL completion as an indicator). Only one out of four!!
The question is this: Are there enough low-time jobs and CFI jobs COMBINED to produce sufficient numbers of 1500-hour pilots for the airlines? Is there enough demand in the Part 91 segment (plus Part 135 SIC) to produce pilots capable of applying for FO positions?
[Please do not make this a debate about the merits of working as a CFI or about slamming the 1500-hour rule. Let's discuss the question above!!]
It seems like the advice is always to work as a CFI if you want to build hours. In every thread where someone wants other ideas to avoid it, they get told to 'suck it up' (or similar). The perspective is often juvenile: "I did it, you should too"...almost like it's a mandatory right of passage in aviation. But that's not the point here. Please don't respond with the virtues of having worked as a CFI.
I GET IT. You really only know something well if you can teach it...blah, blah, blah... I have taught high school for multiple years. Both physics and math. I have a B.S. in Physics. I know about teaching, and am not afraid of challenging technical or complex subject matter. I think if I were to have continued teaching full-time A FEW MORE YEARS, I would really learn how to be an exceptional teacher. For the same reason I would never go to a low-time CFI (anyone with less than 1,000 hours or so of dual already given). A Flight Instructor should be the pinnacle of aviation, not a career stepping stone...and below the Regionals at that! But I digress...
My point is different. The problem with the old "CFI pipeline" model is simple: there is no way (mathematically speaking) student pilot training will be able to support even a fraction of the pilots working toward airline careers within the newly mandated climate of 1500 hours. There are simply too few who are both interested and able to begin flight lessons (either with career aspirations or for business/leisure flying). Look at the student pilot data...not too promising lately.
Furthermore, there have never been more CFIs with active certificates. The FAA data says so. Right around 99,000 at present (2013 data). This number was 64,000 in 1990. That's the supply side. Now for the demand. There were about 40,000 NEW private pilots created in 1990. And the most recent data from 2013? Less than 16,000 new private pilots. Not looking good for anyone wanting to work as a CFI!!! These numbers mean that the ratio of NEW private pilots to active CFIs has decreased by a factor of four. In other words, there are four (4) times fewer students per CFI now than in 1990 (using PPL completion as an indicator). Only one out of four!!
The question is this: Are there enough low-time jobs and CFI jobs COMBINED to produce sufficient numbers of 1500-hour pilots for the airlines? Is there enough demand in the Part 91 segment (plus Part 135 SIC) to produce pilots capable of applying for FO positions?
[Please do not make this a debate about the merits of working as a CFI or about slamming the 1500-hour rule. Let's discuss the question above!!]
Consider skipping the CFI route and buying a Cessna 150. Fly off a few hundred hours transiting the nation in search of other ways to build time such as pipeline patrol, banner towing, Alaska or overseas part 135. There is no better way to build time and search for the next career step other than hopping along different airports leaving resume's along the way.
Skyhigh
03-31-2015, 04:17 PM
#66
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,019
Here we go again; the skyhigh doom and gloom spiel. You live to jump on things like this, don't you?
Problem is that it's a lie. There are enough students, else the schools couldn't operate, you see. They're not subsidized; they need to make a profit. The schools do have an inflow of students adequate to sustain the schools.
A large number of CFI's out there? Of course there are. Everyone I know is a flight instructor. Literally every pilot that I know personally, is a flight instructor. I'm a flight instructor. Most of those flying for airlines, corporate departments, and any other professional position, is or has been an instructor, and most of us keep of certificates current rather than letting them lapse.
How many of us are competing for those students? Damn few.
The instructor may need to make his own way, go get his students, bring them to the school. There are no guarantees that the instructor will be given students. Welcome to life. Nothing new here.
Abandon entitlement, embrace personal responsibility.
Maybe you're not "building hours" as fast as you'd like toward that magic 1,500 hours (at which point nobody is guaranteeing you any other job, you see). Whose problem is that? Don't like how fast it's progressing for you, then do something about it. Go tow those banners. Go get qualified to spray crops, just like I did. Do something. Life isn't coming to you. Go to it.
Flight instruction is not a scheme. It is not a pyramid scheme. It is not a ponzi scheme. There's no scheme. It's a business. Its' a business that sold you your flight training, and it's a business in which you may work if your performance is up to company standards, and if you're needed. If not, you're on your own. Welcome to life.
There's no scheme, unless it's the plan you provide to get where you want to be. It's all on you.
Life 101.
Problem is that it's a lie. There are enough students, else the schools couldn't operate, you see. They're not subsidized; they need to make a profit. The schools do have an inflow of students adequate to sustain the schools.
A large number of CFI's out there? Of course there are. Everyone I know is a flight instructor. Literally every pilot that I know personally, is a flight instructor. I'm a flight instructor. Most of those flying for airlines, corporate departments, and any other professional position, is or has been an instructor, and most of us keep of certificates current rather than letting them lapse.
How many of us are competing for those students? Damn few.
The instructor may need to make his own way, go get his students, bring them to the school. There are no guarantees that the instructor will be given students. Welcome to life. Nothing new here.
Abandon entitlement, embrace personal responsibility.
Maybe you're not "building hours" as fast as you'd like toward that magic 1,500 hours (at which point nobody is guaranteeing you any other job, you see). Whose problem is that? Don't like how fast it's progressing for you, then do something about it. Go tow those banners. Go get qualified to spray crops, just like I did. Do something. Life isn't coming to you. Go to it.
Flight instruction is not a scheme. It is not a pyramid scheme. It is not a ponzi scheme. There's no scheme. It's a business. Its' a business that sold you your flight training, and it's a business in which you may work if your performance is up to company standards, and if you're needed. If not, you're on your own. Welcome to life.
There's no scheme, unless it's the plan you provide to get where you want to be. It's all on you.
Life 101.
04-08-2015, 11:44 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I agree and have been saying this for decades now. There are not enough students to go around.. The student to instructor ratio suggests that most CFI's have to go without. Essentially it is a career killer right there. If you are suck in a small town you might have to wait 20 years to reach 1500 hours.
Consider skipping the CFI route and buying a Cessna 150. Fly off a few hundred hours transiting the nation in search of other ways to build time such as pipeline patrol, banner towing, Alaska or overseas part 135. There is no better way to build time and search for the next career step other than hopping along different airports leaving resume's along the way.
Skyhigh
Consider skipping the CFI route and buying a Cessna 150. Fly off a few hundred hours transiting the nation in search of other ways to build time such as pipeline patrol, banner towing, Alaska or overseas part 135. There is no better way to build time and search for the next career step other than hopping along different airports leaving resume's along the way.
Skyhigh
Your second paragraph is exactly my plan. Just doing it with a Piper Tomahawk instead (cost equivalent to the C-150). Though, this path has its financial perils. My plane is now sitting on the ramp in need of a new (or rebuilt) engine mount...an improper repair done in '86 finally gave out. Luckily I caught the failure before it became catastrophic. Oh well...
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