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Old 06-14-2018, 12:12 PM   #1  
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Default Revising a very old 18v. Omission

About 10 years ago (2008) I received an Minor In Possession of Alcohol (MIP). I blew a .059, was issued a citation and had the whole thing dismissed. There was no DUI, no license impacts (suspension, revocation, etc) and no educational or rehab assigned, so I did not disclose it on my initial medical in 2016 and in 2017. I did a background check on myself and the FBI, CBI and NDR records came back clean. When I received the court transcript for another matter, I realized that the unsupervised community service could trigger the 'educational or rehabilitation' aspect of 18v, so I self-reported it on my most recent medical application. The court transcript with the dismissal and a personal statement as to what happened was sent to the RFS, where it now sits awaiting judgement. I was hoping with the time elapsed and minor nature it would be fairly easy for the RFS to issue, which was the case in another thread, however I am not encouraged by the current wait. Will update as the process unfolds, Atlanta said there're 14 days allowed to make a decision. If there are any AMEs on here that have advice on what to do next, what to have my AME tell the RFS when they talk, or what to expect, please chime in.

Last edited by conoblep; 06-14-2018 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:12 PM   #2  
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That one is confusing. The requirement to report arrests was supposed to apply only to motor-vehicle infractions involving impairment. But the way they worded it makes it appear that taken literally they mean education/rehab programs for ANY offense, which was not the intent.

I'm pretty sure they'll apply the spirit of the rule and not the letter in this case. If they ask why you didn't report it, tell them the question was confusing.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:35 PM   #3  
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@RickAir777: That was part of the reason I didn't report it. It didn't fit any of the boxes on the medical and was dismissed, so didn't trigger 18w. 18v specifically asks about DUI (no), DL impacts (none) and educational/rehab attendance (no... not in the formal alcohol classes or traffic school sense, but maybe unsupervised public service qualifies?). I went around talking to aviation attorneys (AOPA legal services paying for itself already) as soon as I got ahold of the court documents and realized it could be a mistake. It was a 50/50 split between report it or not, which in my mind makes it a grey area. The spirit of the question seems to be that the FAA wants to know about alcohol incidents, regardless of the outcome. I love it when even attorneys are confused. I may have caused more trouble for myself, however I'd rather be upfront/honest and mistaken then hauled in front of an ALJ for being a liar (which may happen anyway, but it's harder to prove intent if you have self-reported).

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Old 06-14-2018, 02:04 PM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conoblep View Post
@RickAir777: That was part of the reason I didn't report it. It didn't fit any of the boxes on the medical and was dismissed, so didn't trigger 18w. 18v specifically asks about DUI (no), DL impacts (none) and educational/rehab attendance (no... not in the formal alcohol classes or traffic school sense, but maybe unsupervised public service qualifies?). I went around talking to aviation attorneys (AOPA legal services paying for itself already) as soon as I got ahold of the court documents and realized it could be a mistake. It was a 50/50 split between report it or not, which in my mind makes it a grey area. The spirit of the question seems to be that the FAA wants to know about alcohol incidents, regardless of the outcome. I love it when even attorneys are confused. I may have caused more trouble for myself, however I'd rather be upfront/honest and mistaken then hauled in front of an ALJ for being a liar (which may happen anyway, but it's harder to prove intent if you have self-reported).
I would be AMAZED if they made an issue of a minor in possession charge a decade ago unless there have been subsequent alcohol or substance abuse related problems. The usual problem in delays of this kind is that a lot of the "paperwork" is now done ekectronically meaning everything first has to be scanned into the database before anybody even looks at it and decides who it should be sent to for the decision. Then if that person is off at a meeting or something, non emergency stuff is going to just sit, and a 10 year old minor in possession issue is about as non-emergent as it gets.

To use the punch line of a very old joke, "Don'na worry, Luigi, you gonna pass."

You'll have to visualize the hand gestures that go with the reassurance.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:24 PM   #5  
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@Excargodog: Nope, no further interactions with law enforcement outside of a couple errant speeding tickets over the years "You were going 62... "but the speed limit is 65!"... "Yeah it is"). The only abuse I partake in is chasing the dog when he refuses to return when called (which is always). I'm more concerned that it wasn't reported on prior medicals, and that could be made an issue.

A follow on question, since I saw the AME a few months before my current medical expires to give myself some breathing room while this sorts itself out... Can I fly on my current medical with AME permission while my new one is in limbo? Can you fly on a current medical with the AME blessing while a new one is deferred? It hasn't officially been deferred yet since the 8500-8 from MedXpress is still with my AME while the RFS reviews the paperwork.
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Old 06-14-2018, 03:15 PM   #6  
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Quote:
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@Excargodog: Nope, no further interactions with law enforcement outside of a couple errant speeding tickets over the years "You were going 62... "but the speed limit is 65!"... "Yeah it is"). The only abuse I partake in is chasing the dog when he refuses to return when called (which is always). I'm more concerned that it wasn't reported on prior medicals, and that could be made an issue.

A follow on question, since I saw the AME a few months before my current medical expires to give myself some breathing room while this sorts itself out... Can I fly on my current medical with AME permission while my new one is in limbo? Can you fly on a current medical with the AME blessing while a new one is deferred? It hasn't officially been deferred yet since the 8500-8 from MedXpress is still with my AME while the RFS reviews the paperwork.

If you have a current in-date physical and have not received notification that that one has been revoked or suspended then you have a current in date physical. Unless the AME told you that he was revoking the previous one, it is as valid now as it has been since he first did it.



If this is causing you to lose sleep, call your local regional flight surgeon and explain the situation to him/her and ask for a verbal confirmation:


https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...ification/rfs/


He/She ought to be able to pull up your record and take a look at where it is in the process.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:23 AM   #7  
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Dr. Klein from the Atlanta RFS office called today, said no issues and gave the go-ahead for the AME to issue. He even called me as well to let me know everything is fine and that he had directed my AME to issue. He directed the AME to put 'issued per RFS' in block 60, which I expect puts it to bed. He cautioned against further alcohol related incidents, and I expect to get a manila folder from the FAA in the future with the same caution statement. While stressful to deal with a situation like this, dealing with the Atlanta RFS office was surprisingly easy and they were quite helpful.

As an aside, AOPA legal confirms excargodog's statement about 61.23. With a current FAA medical, if a new medical application was put on hold or deferred but you have no reason to believe you aren't medically fit to fly (self-ground) then you can continue to fly on the unexpired medical until it expires or is officially suspended/revoked for failure to meet medical certification standards.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:39 PM   #8  
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" I say, I SAY BOY! Ya' don't be gibbin' NO answers to NO questions that AIN'T been asked...!!!! " - Foghorn Leghorn


WTHIWWY ?






STK
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:47 PM   #9  
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" I say, I SAY BOY! Ya' don't be gibbin' NO answers to NO questions that AIN'T been asked...!!!! " - Foghorn Leghorn


WTHIWWY ?






STK
Some people are cursed with consciences Stimpy.

Then there's you and me....
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:50 PM   #10  
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There are those with consciences... And there are those who have read Spyke v. Administrator who also know they have an SF-86 re-investigation coming up, the possibility of an investigator calling the FAA and a future airline career on the line. I'd rather ol' foghorn remain a chicken than NTSB appeal fried drumsticks... They seem to be rather fond of upholding FAA appeals of all sorts regardless of merit...

I apologize for my conscience... I'm working with the ready room and the APC forum population to cure me of such inconveniences

@STK where were you at the beginning of all this?!?

Last edited by conoblep; 06-15-2018 at 05:06 PM.
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