Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Pilot Health (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pilot-health/)
-   -   Failed Medical- Does FAA Verify Information (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pilot-health/114514-failed-medical-does-faa-verify-information.html)

Troymh 06-20-2018 05:04 PM

Failed Medical- Does FAA Verify Information
 
I failed a first-class med 4 years ago for being on Prozac. Fought it for a year and gave up. Fast forward, I want to fly professionally again. I'm honestly planning on being dishonest with the FAA on the medical history form. I learned 4 years ago that honesty can throw you into a bureaucratic-black-hole. Does anybody know if they'll look at past FAA exams?

PerfInit 06-20-2018 06:02 PM

Getting my popcorn ready cuz this outta be a good show! Would it be worth it to you to risk permanently losing every FAA certificate you have? Intentional Falsification on an FAA application is a very serious offense.

SonicFlyer 06-20-2018 06:08 PM

Yes, and you are talking about committing a federal pound-me-in-the-ass-prison felony here :rolleyes:

Troymh 06-20-2018 07:19 PM


Originally Posted by PerfInit (Post 2618418)
Getting my popcorn ready cuz this outta be a good show! Would it be worth it to you to risk permanently losing every FAA certificate you have? Intentional Falsification on an FAA application is a very serious offense.

Thank you captain obvious.

Troymh 06-20-2018 07:23 PM


Originally Posted by SonicFlyer (Post 2618424)
Yes, and you are talking about committing a federal pound-me-in-the-ass-prison felony here :rolleyes:

Thanks for responding. Do you have first-hand knowledge of this? You're taking it in the ass comment makes me question your credibility. Sorry if I'm mistaken. It was funny and I'm aware it's not legal. I'm also aware pilots bend the truth every day in these matters if it's not going to affect their ability to do their job safely.

Droopy 06-20-2018 07:39 PM

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...al-application

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/defaul...ony_july17.pdf

Pilot sentenced in Sacramento after using false documents to fly | The Sacramento Bee

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...-falsification

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...al-application

But do what you want...

The alternative is to get some help/advice from an aeromedical organization (AOPA is good, but there are others), figure out what the FAA requires, and do that.

Troymh 06-20-2018 08:33 PM

Thank you
 

Originally Posted by Droopy (Post 2618494)

Thanks for all the effort. Exactly what I needed. Weird the AF didn't care but the FAA has made it so difficult.

Excargodog 06-20-2018 08:38 PM

Absolutely they check it. In fact, when you input info on medxpress the computer automatically flags any discrepancy that obvious although that info may or may not be given to the AME who typically can only access (but not change) the histories on people he personally did the physical on. But both regional flight surgeons and Oklahoma City have access to everything, and will be on the phone to the AME within one business day of you actually signing the paperwork, because that's when the crime is actually committed.

But Troymh, what is your motivation here? HISTORY of taking Prozac is not necessarily disqualifying. Are you intending to simply continue taking it without telling anyone? That too is of course illegal, but if you've stopped NEEDING it and your underlying depression has resolved, simple history of depression is something waiverable assuming you get a proper work up that demonstrates your problems have resolved.

Of course, they catch you lying to them, you are probably screwed for good - and they WILL catch you if you falsely report information they already know about you.

Excargodog 06-20-2018 08:42 PM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618519)
Thanks for all the effort. Exactly what I needed. Weird the AF didn't care but the FAA has made it so difficult.


The USAF let you fly on Prozac? Knowingly? I don't believe it. What base and what aircraft?

Troymh 06-20-2018 09:05 PM


Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2618522)
Absolutely they check it. In fact, when you input info on medxpress the computer automatically flags any discrepancy that obvious although that info may or may not be given to the AME who typically can only access (but not change) the histories on people he personally did the physical on. But both regional flight surgeons and Oklahoma City have access to everything, and will be on the phone to the AME within one business day of you actually signing the paperwork, because that's when the crime is actually committed.

But Troymh, what is your motivation here? HISTORY of taking Prozac is not necessarily disqualifying. Are you intending to simply continue taking it without telling anyone? That too is of course illegal, but if you've stopped NEEDING it and your underlying depression has resolved, simple history of depression is something waiverable assuming you get a proper work up that demonstrates your problems have resolved.

Of course, they catch you lying to them, you are probably screwed for good - and they WILL catch you if you falsely report information they already know about you.

Thank you for the information. It's clear that deception would be crazy. I haven't taken Prozac in years but I have to find a shrink to say I don't need it, then wait 6 months and somehow prove I haven't used it...go figure. They have all my VA records which contain PTSD stuff so I was hoping to avoid it coming up again. Think I'll keep my feet on the ground. Guess I've flown and seen enough. Thanks again.

JohnBurke 06-21-2018 05:35 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618375)
I failed a first-class med 4 years ago for being on Prozac. Fought it for a year and gave up. Fast forward, I want to fly professionally again. I'm honestly planning on being dishonest with the FAA on the medical history form. I learned 4 years ago that honesty can throw you into a bureaucratic-black-hole. Does anybody know if they'll look at past FAA exams?

Yes, your medical record is permanent, and yes, if you lie, you'll get caught, and not only is that grounds for revocation of your medical and pilot certification, but it's a federal offense.

You do understand that your medical application is a legal document, don't you?

Prohibitions against flying while on certain drugs or with certain conditions are not arbitrary. These come with a reason. Attempting to lie to get around those conditions is unwise; it's dangerous and shows very poor judgement. If you intend to be a professional pilot, you should know that we're paid for judgement, not just for operating the aircraft.

Your attitude is flippant, and argumentative, to say nothing of dismissive. You've asserted that it's okay to falsify your medical application on the grounds that other "do it all the time." You've stated that the USAF didn't care about your medication (or condition), and attempt to fiat that belief to the FAA's aeromedical standards, yet I'd find it very difficult to believe that you're facing denial of a medical certificate under FAA standards for which the USAF had no regard. What flight surgeon overlooked this condition and gave you a clean bill of health?

Yes, you absolutely do need to show clear of your problem and provide adequate documentation. This is not trivia. You've indicated that you wish to fly professionally "again." This suggests that you've flown professionally before, but your attitude is dangerous on several grounds, and is not professional.

I'd question the wisdom of entering in a public forum to make a declaration of your intent to falsify a government document. There are resources for assisting you with your medical certification. You may also wish to consult an attorney before leaving an electronic trail of admission and intent to deceive and falsify.

Troymh 06-21-2018 06:13 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618537)
Thank you for the information. It's clear that deception would be crazy. I haven't taken Prozac in years but I have to find a shrink to say I don't need it, then wait 6 months and somehow prove I haven't used it...go figure. They have all my VA records which contain PTSD stuff so I was hoping to avoid it coming up again. Think I'll keep my feet on the ground. Guess I've flown and seen enough. Thanks again.

Thank you. I get it. I guess you didn't see an earlier response that I had to another post. I haven't used Prozac for years but it's a lengthy process to prove it. Just a bureaucracy I'm going to have to deal with if I want to fly.

JohnBurke 06-21-2018 06:25 AM

No, it's not "just a bureaucracy."

These are medical standards that every one of us who flies professionally must meet on a regular basis, but far more important than simply obtaining the paper is the issue of safety and judgement. Thus far your posts have indicated glaring errors in both.

Troymh 06-21-2018 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2618525)
The USAF let you fly on Prozac? Knowingly? I don't believe it. What base and what aircraft?

A-10 Incirlik. I appreciate everyone's feedback but I'm not going to entertain the troll sh*t and go off topic. Thanks, everyone. Sometimes it's useful to have people remind me "that's a really stupid thought". Point taken and appreciated.

WhisperJet 06-21-2018 07:58 AM

Talk to AOPA and let them help you navigate the process. If you need a second opinion on how to go forward, pay for a service like AMAS, which is the company ALPA contracts with. A little up front leg work will help things progress smoother.

As others have said, avoid lying to the FAA. Best to be upfront about everything and let your conscience rest easy.

Cheers and good luck to you.

Troymh 06-21-2018 08:19 AM


Originally Posted by WhisperJet (Post 2618753)
Talk to AOPA and let them help you navigate the process. If you need a second opinion on how to go forward, pay for a service like AMAS, which is the company ALPA contracts with. A little up front leg work will help things progress smoother.

As others have said, avoid lying to the FAA. Best to be upfront about everything and let your conscience rest easy.

Cheers and good luck to you.

Thank you. I appreciate you.

Troymh 06-21-2018 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 2618660)
Yes, your medical record is permanent, and yes, if you lie, you'll get caught, and not only is that grounds for revocation of your medical and pilot certification, but it's a federal offense.

You do understand that your medical application is a legal document, don't you?

Prohibitions against flying while on certain drugs or with certain conditions are not arbitrary. These come with a reason. Attempting to lie to get around those conditions is unwise; it's dangerous and shows very poor judgement. If you intend to be a professional pilot, you should know that we're paid for judgement, not just for operating the aircraft.

Your attitude is flippant, and argumentative, to say nothing of dismissive. You've asserted that it's okay to falsify your medical application on the grounds that other "do it all the time." You've stated that the USAF didn't care about your medication (or condition), and attempt to fiat that belief to the FAA's aeromedical standards, yet I'd find it very difficult to believe that you're facing denial of a medical certificate under FAA standards for which the USAF had no regard. What flight surgeon overlooked this condition and gave you a clean bill of health?

Yes, you absolutely do need to show clear of your problem and provide adequate documentation. This is not trivia. You've indicated that you wish to fly professionally "again." This suggests that you've flown professionally before, but your attitude is dangerous on several grounds, and is not professional.

I'd question the wisdom of entering in a public forum to make a declaration of your intent to falsify a government document. There are resources for assisting you with your medical certification. You may also wish to consult an attorney before leaving an electronic trail of admission and intent to deceive and falsify.

Wow. You should really try reading before responding. Maybe you wouldn't come across so self-righteous and ignorant.:)

Troymh 06-21-2018 09:05 AM

Thank you Droopy. This is was invaluable.
 

Originally Posted by Droopy (Post 2618494)

I don't know if I'm posting responses correctly but your information was perfect.

Troymh 06-21-2018 09:15 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618703)
A-10 Incirlik. I appreciate everyone's feedback but I'm not going to entertain the troll sh*t and go off topic. Thanks, everyone. Sometimes it's useful to have people remind me "that's a really stupid thought". Point taken and appreciated.

In case you haven't heard of it, it's in Turkey, which is in the Middle East. And the A-10 is an airplane. We were also allowed Ritalin back then. I wasn't on Prozac but I think some guys were. And who cares. You probably haven't experienced any emotional issues from your flying career and that's great. Suggestion: don't judge.

TiredSoul 06-21-2018 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618803)
Wow. You should really try reading before responding. Maybe you wouldn't come across so self-righteous and ignorant.:)

And maybe you should apply with Eurowings.
I have a hard time taking anything you post serious because of your attitude.
So no, Iím not gonna put any effort in a helpful answer.

JohnBurke 06-21-2018 10:40 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618822)
In case you haven't heard of it, it's in Turkey, which is in the Middle East. And the A-10 is an airplane. We were also allowed Ritalin back then. I wasn't on Prozac but I think some guys were. And who cares. You probably haven't experienced any emotional issues from your flying career and that's great. Suggestion: don't judge.

I've heard of it. I've flown there. Quite a bit. You haven't.

You never flew professionally, nor for the USAF, nor do your comments reflect anything but poor judgement, argumentativeness, defensiveness, and an antiauthoritarian attitude. You've expressed an intent to commit a crime, and done so on a public forum. You continue to quote yourself, which of its own accord is odd.

You're what's referred to as a "troll," and as such merit nothing further than assignment to the "ignore" list.

https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-pl...ots-115099111/

https://pilot-protection-services.ao.../03/depression

The flowcharts and counsel below address the matter clearly:

http://pilotdr.com/depression_all.pdf

Troymh 06-21-2018 10:57 AM

I didn't look at links before responding.
 

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 2618895)
I've heard of it. I've flown there. Quite a bit. You haven't.

You never flew professionally, nor for the USAF, nor do your comments reflect anything but poor judgement, argumentativeness, defensiveness, and an antiauthoritarian attitude. You've expressed an intent to commit a crime, and done so on a public forum. You continue to quote yourself, which of its own accord is odd.

You're what's referred to as a "troll," and as such merit nothing further than assignment to the "ignore" list.

https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-pl...ots-115099111/

https://pilot-protection-services.ao.../03/depression

The flowcharts and counsel below address the matter clearly:

http://pilotdr.com/depression_all.pdf

Seriously, I asked an honest question. Read before attacking please. I've explained what is required for me to go through for a prescription I took years ago. As you know, the industry is much different than it used to be, and I've been thinking about getting back into it. I've gone back and forth with the FAA and their bureaucracy and I'm assuming you never have. Excuse me for wondering out loud if I wouldn't have to deal with it again for the next 6 months. And FU for questioning previous AF experience. It's not relevant to the conversation but I'm assuming you knew it would get my blood boiling. Stop being so miserable...life's too short. I understand, my mom's basement sucks also 😎https://www.hookedonphonics.com/learn-to-read-app-2/

rickair7777 06-21-2018 01:35 PM

Long sigh....

OP: No, do not lie on the medical form, most especially for anything which is documented in federal records. Most, most especially for something previously documented with the FAA. Federal prison time is at stake.

Good news... if you're off meds, and have recovered you can fly, just have to jump through a few hoops. Don't have to wait any abitrary time period if you've been well for a while, just have to do the paperwork and whatever evaluation they may want you to get.

Bad news... if you have a mental health diagnosis with the VA, that's a problem. Typically the advocates who help vets apply for VA benefits seek to maximize the disability rating, but that can backfire if you want to fly as a civilian if the condition is disqualifying. If the VA is giving you a percentage (other than zero as a placeholder), then you're probably going to need to get that diagnosis resolved before you go to the FAA. I'm pretty sure that you cannot have a rating for anxiety, depression, or most PTSD and then claim clean mental health for the FAA. Note that you can have ratings for things like bad knees, bad back, hearing loss, etc and many airline pilots do. Just not things which are disqualifying in and of themselves.

Troymh 06-21-2018 05:09 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2619033)
Long sigh....

OP: No, do not lie on the medical form, most especially for anything which is documented in federal records. Most, most especially for something previously documented with the FAA. Federal prison time is at stake.

Good news... if you're off meds, and have recovered you can fly, just have to jump through a few hoops. Don't have to wait any abitrary time period if you've been well for a while, just have to do the paperwork and whatever evaluation they may want you to get.

Bad news... if you have a mental health diagnosis with the VA, that's a problem. Typically the advocates who help vets apply for VA benefits seek to maximize the disability rating, but that can backfire if you want to fly as a civilian if the condition is disqualifying. If the VA is giving you a percentage (other than zero as a placeholder), then you're probably going to need to get that diagnosis resolved before you go to the FAA. I'm pretty sure that you cannot have a rating for anxiety, depression, or most PTSD and then claim clean mental health for the FAA. Note that you can have ratings for things like bad knees, bad back, hearing loss, etc and many airline pilots do. Just not things which are disqualifying in and of themselves.

Thank you.

Whale Driver 06-24-2018 07:11 AM

If you want to fly, your best and maybe only option is https://www.aviationmedicine.com/

This is basically ALPA Aeromedical. It is not going to be cheap, but they will get it done if you are no longer being treated.
The sole purpose of medexpress was to make the medical applicant complete the medical form without the input from a doctor. So as to get a more complete picture that can not be edited later, in other words to catch exactly what you are asking.

Troymh 06-24-2018 12:27 PM

Thank you
 
I really appreciate the information and the time you took to share it with me.

Pilot Muscle 06-24-2018 02:30 PM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618537)
Thank you for the information. It's clear that deception would be crazy. I haven't taken Prozac in years but I have to find a shrink to say I don't need it, then wait 6 months and somehow prove I haven't used it...go figure. They have all my VA records which contain PTSD stuff so I was hoping to avoid it coming up again. Think I'll keep my feet on the ground. Guess I've flown and seen enough. Thanks again.

As an AF employee myself, I'm wondering how you got your class 1 medical in the first place with a history of PTSD?

Troymh 06-24-2018 08:53 PM

PTSD diagnosed 10 years after civ flying. Seems to be the catch-all diagnosis... I went through a divorce! Nothing military related but I use VA. I should have never disclosed a short-term prescription on my medical because, real world, it didn't matter. Personally, I'd rather fly with someone on Prozac than listen to him whine about his divorce for 2 hours.

atpwannabe 06-25-2018 05:17 AM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618375)
I failed a first-class med 4 years ago for being on Prozac. Fought it for a year and gave up. Fast forward, I want to fly professionally again. I'm honestly planning on being dishonest with the FAA on the medical history form. I learned 4 years ago that honesty can throw you into a bureaucratic-black-hole. Does anybody know if they'll look at past FAA exams?

Troymh:

Whatever you do...be honest! Take it from someone that knows. Don't shoot yourself in the foot! You'll regret it later.


atp

BarrySeal 06-25-2018 12:53 PM


Originally Posted by Troymh (Post 2618375)
I failed a first-class med 4 years ago for being on Prozac. Fought it for a year and gave up. Fast forward, I want to fly professionally again. I'm honestly planning on being dishonest with the FAA on the medical history form. I learned 4 years ago that honesty can throw you into a bureaucratic-black-hole. Does anybody know if they'll look at past FAA exams?


Purposely mislead and Lie on an FAA document or logbook and they can, and most likely, will, revoke all certificates.

Pro Bono 07-17-2021 09:59 PM


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 2618895)
I've heard of it. I've flown there. Quite a bit. You haven't.

You never flew professionally, nor for the USAF, nor do your comments reflect anything but poor judgement, argumentativeness, defensiveness, and an antiauthoritarian attitude. You've expressed an intent to commit a crime, and done so on a public forum. You continue to quote yourself, which of its own accord is odd.

You're what's referred to as a "troll," and as such merit nothing further than assignment to the "ignore" list.

https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-pl...ots-115099111/

https://pilot-protection-services.ao.../03/depression

The flowcharts and counsel below address the matter clearly:

http://pilotdr.com/depression_all.pdf



Sometimes, it's "good trouble" to be anti-authoritarian unless you live in a dictatorship.

I say, if the record doesn't already exist, make them do their due diligence to discover the "lie." Then, if they do, apologize and provide all documentation. I've lied on forms with serious jail time as a deterrent, went to the admin hearing and lost, and called their bluff - no jail time or fine. I challenged the validity of enforcement to force the government to show how well/poorly they are able to uphold ridiculous rules. It was inconvienent and cost the taxpayer money, but it felt really good fighting ridiculous regulations.

Pro Bono 07-17-2021 10:20 PM


Originally Posted by Droopy (Post 2618494)



So, don't crash, collect SSA disability benefits, or commit identity theft and they won't catch the lie, got it.

Also, "If you make an inadvertent oversight, and the FAA picks up on it, a letter of explanation and supportive medical documentation will usually resolve the issue before it gets out of hand." - Worth a try to get away with it first and ask for forgiveness afterwards.

For example, unless they scan your brain for indications of lying, why admit to using cannabis in a legal state? If you're not under the influence at the time of flying, it shouldn't matter if you have a trace amount attributable to rubbing cannabis lotion on your sore muscles from a ski trip a few weeks prior. Sometimes, regulations (like the prohibition of cannabinoids) is not based on sound science, rather anecdotal evidence, shotty tests on rats, and the holy word of Harry Anslinger and Richard Nixon. - this argument applies to the Olympics, too.

rickair7777 07-18-2021 02:46 PM


Originally Posted by Pro Bono (Post 3265205)
Sometimes, it's "good trouble" to be anti-authoritarian unless you live in a dictatorship.

I say, if the record doesn't already exist, make them do their due diligence to discover the "lie." Then, if they do, apologize and provide all documentation. I've lied on forms with serious jail time as a deterrent, went to the admin hearing and lost, and called their bluff - no jail time or fine. I challenged the validity of enforcement to force the government to show how well/poorly they are able to uphold ridiculous rules. It was inconvienent and cost the taxpayer money, but it felt really good fighting ridiculous regulations.


Originally Posted by Pro Bono (Post 3265209)
So, don't crash, collect SSA disability benefits, or commit identity theft and they won't catch the lie, got it.

Also, "If you make an inadvertent oversight, and the FAA picks up on it, a letter of explanation and supportive medical documentation will usually resolve the issue before it gets out of hand." - Worth a try to get away with it first and ask for forgiveness afterwards.

For example, unless they scan your brain for indications of lying, why admit to using cannabis in a legal state? If you're not under the influence at the time of flying, it shouldn't matter if you have a trace amount attributable to rubbing cannabis lotion on your sore muscles from a ski trip a few weeks prior. Sometimes, regulations (like the prohibition of cannabinoids) is not based on sound science, rather anecdotal evidence, shotty tests on rats, and the holy word of Harry Anslinger and Richard Nixon. - this argument applies to the Olympics, too.

*** Exceptionally Bad Advice

Pilots have recently gone to jail for lying on their medical application.

If you concurrently contradict yourself in other gov records that makes the prosecution very low hanging fruit and while I agree that's more dangerous than simple non-disclosure there's no guarantee that they won't prosecute if they can document the case with medical records, etc.

Also, the FAA can emergency revoke all of your certs and that's much easier than making a federal case.

Don't go there.

JohnBurke 07-19-2021 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by Pro Bono (Post 3265205)
Sometimes, it's "good trouble" to be anti-authoritarian unless you live in a dictatorship.

I say, if the record doesn't already exist, make them do their due diligence to discover the "lie." Then, if they do, apologize and provide all documentation. I've lied on forms with serious jail time as a deterrent, went to the admin hearing and lost, and called their bluff - no jail time or fine. I challenged the validity of enforcement to force the government to show how well/poorly they are able to uphold ridiculous rules. It was inconvienent and cost the taxpayer money, but it felt really good fighting ridiculous regulations.

Two posts and you're already in deep...advocating both fraud and falsification on a federal form. Substantial penalties are attached.

Don't you dare quote John Lewis and muddy his advocacy for "good trouble" with what you're professing; drug use, lying, cheating, falsification, fraud, and a federal crime. That's not "good trouble." It's a crime. A very clear crime. It's also an outstanding way to torpedo a career. Permanently.

If you can't be trusted to fill out a god damn form correctly, how in the hell can you be trusted to pilot an aircraft? Good god. Do you think before you write? Obviously not well. Try again.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:51 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands