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Alcohol question
ok quick question I got. Lets say a very good person clean record(no arrests), no dependence record for illicit substance and alcohol in his/her medical history, gets hospitalized because he/she party to hard one night and went to the hospital with acute alcohol intoxication, just with that case means denial of his/her 1st medical when that person goes back for his/her annual check up? or what would the steps be taken by the ame to try to get the persons 1st class med
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Here's the first question I'd ask:
On your hospital admission/discharge paperwork, or other orders (if you have them)... was that "acute alcohol intoxication" specifically listed ANYWHERE as a diagnosis or reason for your visit? |
in my friend's case yes when i picked her up from the hospitalwas acute alcohol intoxication further treatment was to eat and rest up. i signed her discharge paper.we are both trying to get into a school to fly. she is very afraid that with that case shes not gonna be able to get her medical and not fly at all
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Are you in the US?
If so you are probably OK. The bad news is that you probably will need to report that when you apply for an FAA medical, and they will probably require a substance abuse evaluation (at your expense). I would assume that if this is the first and only time time that this has happened and you are young and not actually addicted to anything they will determine that it was a lapse in judgment not an addiction/abuse problem. But you now have one strike...a DUI or other subsequent substance abuse problems could get your medical revoked. Be extra careful in the future. |
Originally Posted by javelin
(Post 597279)
Here's the first question I'd ask:
On your hospital admission/discharge paperwork, or other orders (if you have them)... was that "acute alcohol intoxication" specifically listed ANYWHERE as a diagnosis or reason for your visit? Of course if the medical service provider was NOT your usual provider and not billed to your insurance HMO, it would be very hard for the FAA to find out about this incident. But you never know... |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 597416)
I guarantee you that if she went in for that, they documented it somewhere. Don't kid yourself that you can pretend there are no records.
Of course if the medical service provider was NOT your usual provider and not billed to your insurance HMO, it would be very hard for the FAA to find out about this incident. But you never know... Rickair's right, if there was "alcohol intoxication" on ANY of the paperwork, it WILL need to be reported on the medical and a DUI would be REALLY BAD. BUT. if it was an injury treated and "acute alcohol [anything]" wasn't specifically listed on any hospital documentation, they don't have anything. So, look at what the hospital has over the admission case! |
she'll get a medical. but anything further will be a larger issue.
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Similar situation....
I actually have a similar circumstance. I was out drinking with my wife and friends on a weekend, away from work. I drank far too much and ended up on one of those pay scooters. Don't remember what happened but fairly quickly I fell off and knocked myself out. My wife and friends called 911 and I ended up in the hospital with mild Traumatic Brain Injury. So obviously I'm dealing with that issue. (I would have reported this to the FAA as its a pretty serious injury and I wasn't going to be able to return to work anytime soon. However, the hospital was a military hospital in my city and someone reported it to the FAA for me.... how nice of them.:mad:) It's been a few months and I am fine now, so the TBI thing is just a waiting game with the FAA at this point and I'm OK with that, I'm on LTD and I have gone back to work at my old airline as a pilot recruiter too.
I had an AME that I got through the HIMS guy at our union. They have collected and submitted all my relevant paperwork. I have a clean driving record, and a clean medical history. I went ahead and went to a HIMS Psychiatrist who said with this incident and my admission that I am occasionally hungover that I qualify for "substance abuse disorder - mild." Which is a DSM term, and apparently not an FAA term. I have been briefed on the whole "dependence" definition in the eyes of the FAA. But in my opinion the shoe doesn't fit here. I drank far too excessively and clearly couldn't handle it, knocking myself out. That's abuse, for sure, but I don't see how it can be construed as dependence. My question is, will I be forced to go into HIMS, and/or get monitored and/or tested for a few years? Everyone I talk to seems to think yes, but this is a strange circumstance. (By everyone I mean my original HIMS AME who had to retire due to health issues, a new HIMS AME and a guy at AMAS) They always refer back to DUI cases they know of, but this was not a DUI and there was no legal action involved. The kicker in all of this is that my hospital paperwork shows my BAC on admission and it is (and seems suspiciously) VERY high. I have picked through the paperwork with a fine-tooth comb and can find no blood work to verify this BAC. It's just listed in the general discharge comments (along with multiple instances in which they incorrectly called me a 28 year old male.) I found blood work from the next day with a BAC that's still pretty high, but nothing from my actual admission to verify this seemingly contrived claim. |
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758321)
I actually have a similar circumstance. I was out drinking with my wife and friends on a weekend, away from work. I drank far too much and ended up on one of those pay scooters. Don't remember what happened but fairly quickly I fell off and knocked myself out. My wife and friends called 911 and I ended up in the hospital with mild Traumatic Brain Injury. So obviously I'm dealing with that issue. (I would have reported this to the FAA as its a pretty serious injury and I wasn't going to be able to return to work anytime soon. However, the hospital was a military hospital in my city and someone reported it to the FAA for me.... how nice of them.:mad:) ... I found blood work from the next day with a BAC that's still pretty high, but nothing from my actual admission to verify this seemingly contrived claim.
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What he said ^^^
Better give HIMS a shot, I suspect that either your drinking or flying days are through, one or the other. |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2758527)
So you had an accident driving while intoxicated, ended up with a TBI, had blood work in the ER that was “suspiciously” high, to the extent that it was STILL high the next day? And you somehow believe because you were never really CHARGED with a DUI that the THREE physicians you have talked to can’t possibly be correct in saying you are headed for HIMS - if indeed you are even THAT fortunate?
I never denied drinking far in excess. I am not claiming the BAC was tampered or something. I’m saying it may not be correct, but I was definitely inebriated. I am not denying that HIMS is a very real likelihood or else I wouldn’t be here in the first place. My question is does anyone know of any situation like this? The three AME’s say HIMS, (however none of the AME’s said it was a certainty, with no other incidents to show this was anything other than what it was - a stupid mistake) but they cite specific ARRESTS and DUI related instances. This is a situation in which I over-consumed, big time, and injured myself. There was no arrest because there was no crime. I’m not a fan of your condescension and overall tone. I came for info, maybe a sprinkling of opinion. I have a career, and I have a life. However I’m glad people like me exist so you can spend your evenings educating us on “how it is.” You are a prime example why most intelligent pilots don’t use this page. |
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
What’s the deal, are you the APC police? I didn’t come for random APC warrior’s personal opinion.
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I was not driving, I stepped on an electric scooter on private property, fell very quickly and injured myself. The police were there, I didn’t get lucky or “get away” with it.
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I never denied drinking far in excess. I am not claiming the BAC was tampered or something. I’m saying it may not be correct, but I was definitely inebriated.
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I am not denying that HIMS is a very real likelihood or else I wouldn’t be here in the first place. My question is does anyone know of any situation like this?
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
The three AME’s say HIMS, (however none of the AME’s said it was a certainty, with no other incidents to show this was anything other than what it was - a stupid mistake) but they cite specific ARRESTS and DUI related instances.
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
This is a situation in which I over-consumed, big time, and injured myself. There was no arrest because there was no crime.
Misuse of a substance that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the substance involved, finds: (i) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or (ii) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I’m not a fan of your condescension and overall tone. I came for info, maybe a sprinkling of opinion.
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I have a career, and I have a life. However I’m glad people like me exist so you can spend your evenings educating us on “how it is.” You are a prime example why most intelligent pilots don’t use this page.
Now you can handle this one of two ways. If they had you down for Head injury with loss of consciousness with TBI you are probably grounded for six months anyway. Now you can continue in denial until the end of that time, try to get your physical back without going through the HIMS process and only then when they turn you down make the decision if you are going to go through the process and yes, as Rickair indicated, probably either have to give up alcohol or give up flying altogether, or make that decision now while your career is on hold anyway. And if the alcohol is more important to you than the career, you might as well put it off. But if you are going to have a career in aviation you are going to have to stop the denial and stop seeking support for that denial here in this forum where you indicate intelligent pilots don’t go, and deal with your problem in the only manner that gives you a fair chance of actually KEEPING that career you’ve worked so hard to get. So it’s over to you, your life, your career. Nobody but you can make that decision. I hope for your sake and for the sake of that family that cares for you and who have made the sacrifices right along with you and who - yeah, deserves to enjoy with you the fruits of those labors - that you make a rational choice. And denial is NOT a rational choice. |
Hi, I am sure you are on the defensive but what these two people write are pretty much right. It sounds like you are in a bit of trouble.
It may not be that you were caught drinking on a plane or in a car but I have heard people getting dui for riding a bicycle a “stretch” imo or in a tractor. If you had been caught riding that scooter it would have been a dui in a the eyes of the law. You just got taken to the hospital. Very lucky. Or not Tbi? I realize you were drinking and made a major mistake, it doesn’t seem huge because you sobered up and heck what’s the big deal? Yeah it kind of was according to the docs. I realize you think the shoe doesn’t fit. Your words. Testing high positive the next day as a bac means yes you were that intoxicated. First things doctors do in any situation like yours is draw blood and test immediately for drugs and bac levels. Standard protocol, you can request the initial lab results but it was all done as blood related event because possibly you were not conscious. It will be probably be very high that it will shock you. They did nothing suspicious. Anyway it doesn’t matter because the 1st post claim suspicion of the bac results and now you are attacking them for being Apc police. They gave you good advice, esp Rick air. I will give you a good piece of advice and I highly recommend it. I Would read “Flyin Drunk” by Joe Balzer. It is a good read. I did speak with him on the phone last year. These stories are real. It is a very good story and he is a solid man. Rick Air is right. Good luck man |
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2758708)
I have a career, and I have a life.
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2758734)
Au contraire. That is PRECISELY what you did. It’s a public forum and you told your story, apparently hoping that one or more “random APC warrior’s” personal opinion would reinforce your denial. It didn’t and you are now demonstrating further defensiveness and denial.
Nobody accused you of breaking a law. Having a serious alcohol problem DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO HAVE BROKEN A LAW. Having a serious alcohol problem is a medical condition that happens - unless appropriately and SUCCESSFULLY treated - to be disqualifying MEDICALLY for flying. Any lab test “may not be correct.” But TWO lab tests, consistent with your symptoms, are going to BE ASSUMED BY THE FAA TO BE CORRECT absent COMPELLING evidence to the contrary. yes. I know of at least three cases of pilots who had drinking problems identified through hospitalizations not involving DUIs or any lawbreaking whatsoever. Two military and one civilian. They are unable to say ANYTHING with certainty because IT IS NOT THEIR CALL TO MAKE. It is the FAAs call and based upon the information you provided they can do nothing but defer your case to the FAA. The FAA will require full details of the hospitalization and they will judge you by that paperwork Again, THERE DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ARREST OR A CRIME. The FAA definition of substance abuse IS NOT the DSM definition. It includes: If you do not believe your case meets these criteria, after hearing from three AMEs that it did, then you are deluding yourself. Well, you’ve got it. Info AND opinion. Not condescension but simply treating you like an adult and telling you the truth. You may wish the truth were different, but it isn’t. You are in denial. Except you HAVE used this forum and you have used it in the past, and from your past postings anyone can ascertain where you are currently working in that career, including your own HR people and CP, and it won’t take them 15 minutes to know who you are. Now you can handle this one of two ways. If they had you down for Head injury with loss of consciousness with TBI you are probably grounded for six months anyway. Now you can continue in denial until the end of that time, try to get your physical back without going through the HIMS process and only then when they turn you down make the decision if you are going to go through the process and yes, as Rickair indicated, probably either have to give up alcohol or give up flying altogether, or make that decision now while your career is on hold anyway. And if the alcohol is more important to you than the career, you might as well put it off. But if you are going to have a career in aviation you are going to have to stop the denial and stop seeking support for that denial here in this forum where you indicate intelligent pilots don’t go, and deal with your problem in the only manner that gives you a fair chance of actually KEEPING that career you’ve worked so hard to get. So it’s over to you, your life, your career. Nobody but you can make that decision. I hope for your sake and for the sake of that family that cares for you and who have made the sacrifices right along with you and who - yeah, deserves to enjoy with you the fruits of those labors - that you make a rational choice. And denial is NOT a rational choice. While it may suck to hear, Excargodog gives a blunt, but well-researched answer. Unfortunately, you’re along for the ride on this one. I would suggest that if you want to keep your job you be honest with yourself and all those involved. It’s something that the airline will definitely be looking for. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
None
My advice wait and see what happens. I had a buddy that failed a Dot test (alcohol) and the FAA let it slide the first time. There is more to this story but the point is that they may or may not put you in HIMS. He eventually ended up in HIMS after I went to bat for him the first time and found out later he was not completely truthful with me after the second incident. The other thing is please ask your self if you have drinking problem. I found out through watching him go through all this that denial is one of the biggest steps to overcome.
This Forum is full of self rightous people that have never drank too much or made a mistake. This forum lost all credibility when the moderator changed the title of a previous post of mine. Good luck and hope everything works out but don't put too much faith in advice from a forum. |
Originally Posted by Bucknut
(Post 2759766)
This forum lost all credibility when the moderator changed the title of a previous post of mine.
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Originally Posted by Bucknut
(Post 2759766)
This Forum is full of self rightous people that have never drank too much or made a mistake.
You really can't comprehend that your statement is one of arrogance? |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2758734)
Au contraire. That is PRECISELY what you did. It’s a public forum and you told your story, apparently hoping that one or more “random APC warrior’s” personal opinion would reinforce your denial. It didn’t and you are now demonstrating further defensiveness and denial.
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Originally Posted by Bucknut
(Post 2759766)
My advice wait and see what happens. I had a buddy that failed a Dot test (alcohol) and the FAA let it slide the first time. There is more to this story but the point is that they may or may not put you in HIMS. He eventually ended up in HIMS after I went to bat for him the first time and found out later he was not completely truthful with me after the second incident. The other thing is please ask your self if you have drinking problem. I found out through watching him go through all this that denial is one of the biggest steps to overcome.
This Forum is full of self rightous people that have never drank too much or made a mistake. This forum lost all credibility when the moderator changed the title of a previous post of mine. Good luck and hope everything works out but don't put too much faith in advice from a forum. I have accepted the high probability of HIMS and other than the money and the inconvenience I don't have a problem with it. I haven't had a drink in the 4 months since this happened because alcohol is bad for brain injury recovery. I can quit forever if need be. I don't WANT to, because it's not a vice for me. No one close to me has taken this obviously GOLDEN opportunity to say "you know what, maybe you have a drinking problem?" But I would certainly do it if that's what the feds want. But like I said, my pilot friends, my wife, my AME, my mom -- no one can believe this, and no one believes that HIMS is possible, or necessary. I mistakenly thought I could find some examples of alcohol related injuries and their disposition here. In hindsight I should have known better, it's too hard for some to resist the opportunity this forum provides to sit in judgement of others. Just a quick follow up, and feel free to message me if you want -- You said you "went to bat" for your friend, how so? With the FAA? |
None
Yes in regards to the FAA. He was required to go see a Psychiatrist and have an evaluation. He was required to give references and they called me and asked me quite a few questions. At the time I did not think he had a problem. I told them he might drink too much on a rare occasion but a lot people do including myself. I love a good beer but my diet won't allow me to consume 3 or 4 beers in a night anymore and I realized it is probably not good for you. If you have more than two in one sitting that's probably too much so it is matter of perspective. The truth came out later and it was a good thing it did and no one got hurt because of the problem. It was a learning experience for me too. Like I said best of luck and maybe it is a blessing and you can help some one else out in the future. It certainly made me a more compassionate person watching someone go through this.
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2758527)
So you had an accident driving while intoxicated, ended up with a TBI, had blood work in the ER that was “suspiciously” high, to the extent that it was STILL high the next day? And you somehow believe because you were never really CHARGED with a DUI that the THREE physicians you have talked to can’t possibly be correct in saying you are headed for HIMS - if indeed you are even THAT fortunate?
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I know a similar situation. A friend of mine who had two visits to the hospital from two separate wild trips to Vegas. He reported it to the FAA/his AME and had to go through the whole process of HIMS, took him a lot of money and valuable time. He always says he wished he never reported it to the FAA/his AME to begin with because the FAA never asks about hospital records. And he never drinks nor had a problem with stopping. The FAA medical application asks if you have an issue with substance abuse or dependency. If she has ever been diagnosed (by a doctor) with either of those then she needs to put yes. A person can play a dangerous game if they really do have a drinking problem, don't seek a medical advice, and lie about it on that form. Whether she has to or not go through the HIMS program, she will be able to get a 1st class medical.
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Originally Posted by flyperry
(Post 3178923)
I know a similar situation. A friend of mine who had two visits to the hospital from two separate wild trips to Vegas. He reported it to the FAA/his AME and had to go through the whole process of HIMS, took him a lot of money and valuable time. He always says he wished he never reported it to the FAA/his AME to begin with because the FAA never asks about hospital records.
So if you don't report that, you're lying at least twice and on that form lying's a federal felony. Pilot's do go to jail for that... https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/p...dictments.html So the real question is "will they find out"? Dangerous game, not for the faint of heart. |
§ 67.403 Applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, and records: Falsification, reproduction, or alteration; incorrect statements.(a) No person may make or cause to be made - (1) A fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a medical certificate or on a request for any Authorization for Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate (Authorization) or Statement of Demonstrated Ability (SODA) under this part; (2) A fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is kept, made, or used, to show compliance with any requirement for any medical certificate or for any Authorization or SODA under this part; (3) A reproduction, for fraudulent purposes, of any medical certificate under this part; or (4) An alteration of any medical certificate under this part. (b) The commission by any person of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for - (1) Suspending or revoking all airman, ground instructor, and medical certificates and ratings held by that person; (2) Withdrawing all Authorizations or SODA's held by that person; and (3) Denying all applications for medical certification and requests for Authorizations or SODA's. (c) The following may serve as a basis for suspending or revoking a medical certificate; withdrawing an Authorization or SODA; or denying an application for a medical certificate or request for an authorization or SODA: (1) An incorrect statement, upon which the FAArelied, made in support of an application for a medical certificate or request for an Authorization or SODA. (2) An incorrect entry, upon which the FAA relied, made in any logbook, record, or report that is kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for a medical certificate or an Authorization or SODA. It isn’t just the risk of a few months in Club Fed either. You are literally betting your entire career the FAA will never find out. |
Current HIMS info
https://i.ibb.co/h2t4ncF/BE30-C079-5...1919-AEC11.jpg
https://shackelford.law/wp-content/u...-Documents.pdf On April 1, 2020, the NTSB accepted an FAA proposal which met safety recommendation A-07-43, and extended follow up for airmen with a diagnosis of substance dependence. Subsequent to that decision, AAM reevaluated the minimum requirements of the HIMS recovery program, in consultation with the airline HIMS chairs and addiction psychiatry consultants. Note that the time course below is nominal and indicates usual, uncomplicated progression of recovery but may be modified on a case-by-case basis. The testing frequencies listed are minimums and may be increased at the discretion of the HIMS AME. Effective immediately: Permanent abstinence from mind and mood altering substances is expected for the duration of the flying career. |
Originally Posted by dmk1984
(Post 2760014)
Thank you for providing an example of a situation at least partly similar to mine and some valuable advice. Obviously I'm not here to convince anyone my side of the story, as no one knows me and there's zero point. The reason I came looking for similar occurrences is because of all the random info and opinions people provide me. This was a very strange and out of character accident, so everyone that knows me personally can't believe it happened at all. All my pilot friends flatly cannot believe me when I tell them that I think there's a high probability that I'll be required to do HIMS. My ex-Chief Pilot, my AME and every one of my friends all say there's no way this isolated incident away from work results in HIMS. But I find that people who don't know me typically say it will (and of course on here they also like to sprinkle in a large dose of "holier than thou.") Which is telling in-and-of itself because if this looks bad to someone who doesn't know me then I tend to believe that perspective since that's where the medical board will be coming from.
I have accepted the high probability of HIMS and other than the money and the inconvenience I don't have a problem with it. I haven't had a drink in the 4 months since this happened because alcohol is bad for brain injury recovery. I can quit forever if need be. I don't WANT to, because it's not a vice for me. No one close to me has taken this obviously GOLDEN opportunity to say "you know what, maybe you have a drinking problem?" But I would certainly do it if that's what the feds want. But like I said, my pilot friends, my wife, my AME, my mom -- no one can believe this, and no one believes that HIMS is possible, or necessary. I mistakenly thought I could find some examples of alcohol related injuries and their disposition here. In hindsight I should have known better, it's too hard for some to resist the opportunity this forum provides to sit in judgement of others. Just a quick follow up, and feel free to message me if you want -- You said you "went to bat" for your friend, how so? With the FAA? |
This article from AOPA may be applicable to this issue.
”Pilot sentenced to jail for lying on medical application - AOPA” https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...al-application |
Atf 4473
You also could run afoul of the ATF when buying a gun. There is a question about addiction and abuse.
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