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Conclusion: Flow Blow(s), SAP too

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Conclusion: Flow Blow(s), SAP too

Old 08-15-2018, 11:07 PM
  #1  
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Default Conclusion: Flow Blow(s), SAP too

So, after much deleberation what was once a huge recruiting tool, the flow and SAP, is a non-factor. I am typing this so hopefully the people similar to my position of soon choosing a regional to apply to can see where it doesn’t do much for a new hire at all (at PSA) in this hiring climate. At least I hope it gets you thinking and maybe it will help the current pilots that are getting shafted at PSA right now by drying up the hiring a bit so they can have some leverage. If I’m totally off on this (current PSA pilots) let me know but I truly do care when I see my pilot peers getting the raw end of the deal. Hopefully this doesn’t hose my chances of possibly coming their in the future either but I have counted to cost if so.

If you live in a jr PSA base then try to go to PSA if not then don’t. Exception for RTP guys. I live near two jr bases so it’s still a good choice for me.

If you haven’t read how bad SAP is right now just know it’s nothing to be banking your QOL on and do some research. Hopefully that changes but time will tell. PBS may be coming as well which screws SAP tremendously.

Flow at PSA is pretty much worthless, for the most part, as of now. And it could be at the other wholly owned regionals as well but I don’t know their flow numbers. I’ll explain later in the post.

The possible reasons to go to PSA for flow

1. If AA is your absolute and ultimate place to work the flow matters because it gaurantees it. That’s the only scenario flow has its unshakable positive but I still feel it’s not as great of a factor given future hiring outlooks at AA.

2. If you don’t have a bachelors it might matter (I think this will change to a no factor in the near future but we will see). But get one to up your chances. I know I am.

3. If you have skeletons it may matter (I am betting it doesn’t though). Full disclosure, I have four checkride busts between getting my heli and fixed wing ratings through CFI/II and I’m still betting on myself to get to a Legacy or LCC without the flow. Yes I messed up, yes I learned , yes I will study hard, yes I will pass everything from now on, yes I will establish a long and clean 121 record, no I’m not giving up being a pilot. I didn’t not study or not take it seriously. It happened but it’s not stopping me. It may make life tougher. For those of you with squeaky clean records thus far you’re golden and flow is definitely not needed.

So the flow has an absolute best case scenario of getting you to AA in about 7 years if stars align which probably isn’t going to happen. Worst case 12+. Assuming it’s best case scenario it’s still just about worthless. If AA stops hiring flow stops, congrats it’s worthless. In these times if AA stops hiring something massively terrible has happened and you aren’t going to get hired at any Legacy or LCC anyway so now you are stuck at a regional that has been mistreating their pilots (forced upgrades and displaced without the pay for it) and is not keeping their word (reserve rules and SAP degradation) and pay is substandard (soft pay sucks as well). This is happening now, in a climate when they need pilots to come their, imagine when they have the upper hand. Bonuses are a sham that overall helps the company more than the pilots. It needs to be in base pay to help pilots in all the ranks of the company. That goes for all regionals.

If you do your part I feel like you will make it to a LCC, legacy, cargo of choice in the ~5 years timeframe or less as long as the hiring train keeps rolling. If the hiring train stops you still don’t want to be at PSA based on previously mentioned reasons. You want to be at the regional that pays well as you are going to be their a while.

This is solely based on you not screwing yourself by doing something stupid or having training failures at the 121 level.

Just the way I see it but think about it and do your research. Heck everything could change tomorrow.

Last edited by Making it Count; 08-15-2018 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:53 AM
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Anybody know how to embed that great gif of a guy beating a dead horse? I’m old.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:19 AM
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Default One more thing to consider....

And the biggest negative of flow...
If you are not senior, and a layoff event occurs, MOST flow agreements let mainline pilots come BACKWARDS...last time very few did...but still the effect is magnifying any layoffs at the regional level that has flow....
It is a double edged sword.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Making it Count View Post
...now you are stuck at a regional that has been mistreating their pilots (forced upgrades and displaced without the pay for it) and is not keeping their word (reserve rules and SAP degradation) and pay is substandard (soft pay sucks as well). This is happening now, in a climate when they need pilots to come their, imagine when they have the upper hand. ...
This alone explains the culture at PSA. They need pilots. They're hiring anyone who can fog a mirror, yet they still treat the pilots on property like it's 2002, or 2009. This is PSA's culture, and it's deeply ingrained.

Just think how they would act if they had high quality pilot candidates lined up begging for jobs.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ZippyNH View Post
And the biggest negative of flow...
If you are not senior, and a layoff event occurs, MOST flow agreements let mainline pilots come BACKWARDS...last time very few did...but still the effect is magnifying any layoffs at the regional level that has flow....
It is a double edged sword.
This is not the case here (at present), though nothing would prevent a mainline pilot from being hired at PSA and starting at the bottom of the seniority list, like anyone else.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ZippyNH View Post
And the biggest negative of flow...

If you are not senior, and a layoff event occurs, MOST flow agreements let mainline pilots come BACKWARDS...last time very few did...but still the effect is magnifying any layoffs at the regional level that has flow....

It is a double edged sword.


It’s hard to believe but there’s no flow back to PSA for furloughed AA pilots. It’s insane.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mainlineAF View Post
It’s hard to believe but there’s no flow back to PSA for furloughed AA pilots. It’s insane.
It's no more insane than regional airlines existing to begin with.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Stratapilot View Post
Anybody know how to embed that great gif of a guy beating a dead horse? I’m old.
Sorry, just wanted to put everything together in one thread as to what is happening right now for someone looking at PSA. Yes, all has been said before but I was hoping to make it easier on the potential pilot than looking through multiple threads to build a big picture of what's happening and also prove that it's not just a current PSA pilot that can see it this way.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Making it Count View Post
So, after much deleberation what was once a huge recruiting tool, the flow and SAP, is a non-factor. I am typing this so hopefully the people similar to my position of soon choosing a regional to apply to can see where it doesn’t do much for a new hire at all (at PSA) in this hiring climate. At least I hope it gets you thinking and maybe it will help the current pilots that are getting shafted at PSA right now by drying up the hiring a bit so they can have some leverage. If I’m totally off on this (current PSA pilots) let me know but I truly do care when I see my pilot peers getting the raw end of the deal. Hopefully this doesn’t hose my chances of possibly coming their in the future either but I have counted to cost if so.

If you live in a jr PSA base then try to go to PSA if not then don’t. Exception for RTP guys. I live near two jr bases so it’s still a good choice for me.

If you haven’t read how bad SAP is right now just know it’s nothing to be banking your QOL on and do some research. Hopefully that changes but time will tell. PBS may be coming as well which screws SAP tremendously.

Flow at PSA is pretty much worthless, for the most part, as of now. And it could be at the other wholly owned regionals as well but I don’t know their flow numbers. I’ll explain later in the post.

The possible reasons to go to PSA for flow

1. If AA is your absolute and ultimate place to work the flow matters because it gaurantees it. That’s the only scenario flow has its unshakable positive but I still feel it’s not as great of a factor given future hiring outlooks at AA.

2. If you don’t have a bachelors it might matter (I think this will change to a no factor in the near future but we will see). But get one to up your chances. I know I am.

3. If you have skeletons it may matter (I am betting it doesn’t though). Full disclosure, I have four checkride busts between getting my heli and fixed wing ratings through CFI/II and I’m still betting on myself to get to a Legacy or LCC without the flow. Yes I messed up, yes I learned , yes I will study hard, yes I will pass everything from now on, yes I will establish a long and clean 121 record, no I’m not giving up being a pilot. I didn’t not study or not take it seriously. It happened but it’s not stopping me. It may make life tougher. For those of you with squeaky clean records thus far you’re golden and flow is definitely not needed.

So the flow has an absolute best case scenario of getting you to AA in about 7 years if stars align which probably isn’t going to happen. Worst case 12+. Assuming it’s best case scenario it’s still just about worthless. If AA stops hiring flow stops, congrats it’s worthless. In these times if AA stops hiring something massively terrible has happened and you aren’t going to get hired at any Legacy or LCC anyway so now you are stuck at a regional that has been mistreating their pilots (forced upgrades and displaced without the pay for it) and is not keeping their word (reserve rules and SAP degradation) and pay is substandard (soft pay sucks as well). This is happening now, in a climate when they need pilots to come their, imagine when they have the upper hand. Bonuses are a sham that overall helps the company more than the pilots. It needs to be in base pay to help pilots in all the ranks of the company. That goes for all regionals.

If you do your part I feel like you will make it to a LCC, legacy, cargo of choice in the ~5 years timeframe or less as long as the hiring train keeps rolling. If the hiring train stops you still don’t want to be at PSA based on previously mentioned reasons. You want to be at the regional that pays well as you are going to be their a while.

This is solely based on you not screwing yourself by doing something stupid or having training failures at the 121 level.

Just the way I see it but think about it and do your research. Heck everything could change tomorrow.
Well, I heard from a friend that a friend of his interviewed last week and was offered a class in October...so PSA still appears to have no issues filling classes at the moment.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tlamjaj View Post
Well, I heard from a friend that a friend of his interviewed last week and was offered a class in October...so PSA still appears to have no issues filling classes at the moment.
Unbelievable. I cant believe they haven’t read this thread and stayed away from PSA.

Look, I’m not calling PSA the debull and no one should ever go there. I am sure people will still go there and they should if fits their wants but those wants for the most part shouldn’t be the flow or SAP. If you take those two things away there is mainly only one reason and that’s living in a jr base.

Selfishly I want things to change before I even apply there so maybe this stuff is fixed. Or maybe I dont even get an offer since I’m a bottom of the barrel guy with four primary failures on my record but maybe it helps the guys that do work their including that guy who is going in October.

P.s. one guy doesn’t fill a class anyway. Unless they are enormous. And yes I get Sept. may be full, I was just being facetious.

Last edited by Making it Count; 08-16-2018 at 06:47 AM.
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