PSA CRJ 200 Skids off Runway at CRW
01-22-2010, 12:10 PM
#61
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
Originally Posted by SrfNFly227
This accident resulted in large part do to the flight crews decision to continue the T/O roll even after the ability to stop the aircraft was known to be degraded.
01-22-2010, 12:41 PM
#62
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Position: CL-65 captain
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Originally Posted by SrfNFly227
Are you kidding? That's a horrible analogy. Vr is above V1 and I can think of no company anywhere that would say it is ok to abort above V1. Read what CaptainV quoted about aborts above V1.
If you continued a T/O with the anti-skid inop and something happened that led to an abort after that, I guarantee you that the NTSB accident or, if you're lucky, incident report would read something like this:
This accident resulted in large part do to the flight crews decision to continue the T/O roll even after the ability to stop the aircraft was known to be degraded.
If you continued a T/O with the anti-skid inop and something happened that led to an abort after that, I guarantee you that the NTSB accident or, if you're lucky, incident report would read something like this:
This accident resulted in large part do to the flight crews decision to continue the T/O roll even after the ability to stop the aircraft was known to be degraded.
My analogy works no matter what the speed of the aircraft, 0 kts to Vr. You don't generally base an abort on what happened and hypothetically what might happen to another system in the next 5 seconds. I'm not telling you to abort above V1. And I'm well aware of the studies that V quoted. I am not aborting for anything above v1 short of a wing falling off or flight control failure.
So you are all for aborting for loss of anti skid? at what airspeed is your abort/continue speed for that? You never told us that. I'd sure rather get in the air and land and brake nice and gentle on a 7000+ft runway than slam on the brakes on a 6500 ft takeoff runway and blow 4 tires and lose directional control. Personally, if im over 80 kts im continuing with loss of antiskid
01-22-2010, 12:53 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by SrfNFly227
If you continued a T/O with the anti-skid inop and something happened that led to an abort after that, I guarantee you that the NTSB accident or, if you're lucky, incident report would read something like this:
This accident resulted in large part do to the flight crews decision to continue the T/O roll even after the ability to stop the aircraft was known to be degraded.
01-22-2010, 01:11 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by 3XLoser
We'd probably be talking about an accident instead of an incident....
I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area? 
01-22-2010, 01:19 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by SabreDriver
And this wasn't an accident? I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area?
I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area? Have you sen the pictures of what happened to the Pinnacle MKE and TVC birds when they ran off a runway? Looks like 20 times the damage (collapsed nose gear, wing damage, pressure vessel etc) and they were back up in the air in a few months.
01-22-2010, 01:41 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by SabreDriver
And this wasn't an accident? I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area?
I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area?
01-22-2010, 01:55 PM
#67
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,503
The anti-skid question is a popular one for discussion...
How do you guys brief? At AWAC, it was typically "we'll abort under 80kts for any malfunction, 80kts-V1 for engine fire/failure/red warning/loss of directional control" (or something to that end).
If you get a single chime CAUTION at 75kts for Anti-Skid Inop, are you going to immediately initiate an abort...or are you going to look down and see what the EICAS message is? Okay, at this point you're now at 85kts...what do you do now?
I certainly understand the logic of continuing with an anti-skid failure...but I'm a bigger proponent of "fly as you brief".
How do you guys brief? At AWAC, it was typically "we'll abort under 80kts for any malfunction, 80kts-V1 for engine fire/failure/red warning/loss of directional control" (or something to that end).
If you get a single chime CAUTION at 75kts for Anti-Skid Inop, are you going to immediately initiate an abort...or are you going to look down and see what the EICAS message is? Okay, at this point you're now at 85kts...what do you do now?
I certainly understand the logic of continuing with an anti-skid failure...but I'm a bigger proponent of "fly as you brief".
01-22-2010, 02:29 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by SabreDriver
And this wasn't an accident? I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area?
I'd say it was and there is a pretty good chance that this a/c will never fly again. Most likely, it is damaged beyond "eonomical" repair. But, I could be wrong. The real question is: How did they end up in the EMAS area?
Originally Posted by PW305
Never flown an RJ... can it not be dispatched with the anti-skid inop? Aborting because of an anti-skid failure seems counter productive in my opinion.
01-22-2010, 02:37 PM
#70
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I'm not a blue streaker but I brief it Abort for anything below 80, between 80 and V1 abort for major malfunctions or T/R disagree, Above V1 its an in flight emergency. If wx is super low I'll change it to add aborts for flight instrumentation failures in the 80-V1 range.
I've done RTO's at like 78 kts and it sucked. I was the FO and it was the CA's leg and they aborted. We both thought we were going off the end. Stopped with just about 200 ft left. After seeing that it will take something pretty major in order for me to abort above 80.
There is only 1 condition I will ever abort above V1....If it looks like trying to take the plane in the air will kill more people than running off the end of the runway.
I've done RTO's at like 78 kts and it sucked. I was the FO and it was the CA's leg and they aborted. We both thought we were going off the end. Stopped with just about 200 ft left. After seeing that it will take something pretty major in order for me to abort above 80.
There is only 1 condition I will ever abort above V1....If it looks like trying to take the plane in the air will kill more people than running off the end of the runway.
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