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Eagle NY LEC calls out ALPA National (PSA)

Old 09-28-2013, 06:19 PM
  #1  
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Default Eagle NY LEC calls out ALPA National (PSA)

Eagle NY LEC calls out ALPA National over PSA TA.

Dear Captain Lee Moak and the ALPA Leadership Team –

I ask you to not ratify PSA’s Tentative Agreement with USAirways. I am fully cognizant of the nature of this request and repeated claims that ALPA is a “ground up” organization with decisions flowing from the pilots to the leadership. I am fully aware that a legal and seemingly-fair vote was taken on the PSA property, however I am deeply troubled about new information that has come to light since voting began on this TA, namely:

1) Financial data and industry (“peer”) information utilized by the PSA Leadership to craft talking points to this TA was not from vetted sources. Indeed ALPA’s own E&FA has pointedly disavowed being involved in the gathering or dissemination of this data. Jessie Coeling admitted to the SPSC Meeting that his facts and figures were “gleaned from the internet.”

2) PSA was not in distress, and the parent company was posting record profits and the TA very likely results in a net loss of aircraft.

3) PSA and American Eagle – and possibly Piedmont – all face the likelihood of a merger in the not to distant future. If allowed to stand, PSA’s TA will have extremely negative consequences for both Eagle and Piedmont pilots as our contracts and law require harmonization between contracts. Neither Eagle nor Piedemont pilots got a say in an TA that will very clearly and DIRECTLY affect them in a very negative fashion.*

4) This TA lowers almost every aspect of PSA’s CBA, which was already comparable to industry peers. Lowering the bar further will certainly result in even greater downward pressure on negotiations at other regional carriers both ALPA and non-ALPA. Downward pressure means lower compensation for the pilots and thus lower dues income for the association. I am curious as to this self-destructive tendency.

5) Section 40, Part 6 (2007) “Crisis and Concessionary Negotations” of the ALPA Administrative Manual has not been followed. Like the rules of the sky, the precepts to which we conduct our business are written, often in the blood of previous failures, in the calm before the crisis. ALPA Leadership is taking a dangerous step ignoring our own in-house “rules”.

6) MOST IMPORTANTLY: This TA was championed ad-nauseam at all levels of ALPA Leadership, and was crafted to engender a regional-airline industry a paradigm that ALPA Leadership desires to implement, but was crafted without input from the pilots. Evidence is given in Bruce York’s comments to the SPSC Conference on September 17th that all regional carriers must conform to “the cost box” (even if the better CBAs need to be gutted) and that “regional pilots should start at $30k and increase pay $10k per year for five years capping at $80k” and that longevity “should be capped at 4 years for FO and 12 years for CA across the regional industry.” This stated policy of degrading or destructing regional-airline careers for the enhancement of mainline careers has never been – to my knowledge – voted upon by the membership and thus should not be allowed until so acknowledged.
For these reasons, I ask you to delay affixing your signature to this TA until the above concerns can be addressed.

Respectfully,
Sam Pool
American Eagle***
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Old 09-28-2013, 06:26 PM
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Unfortunately, I don't think you'll get a response from national but you will see Moak blindly sign off on this new low. ...

Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 09-29-2013 at 09:03 AM. Reason: TOS
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherEagleGuy View Post
Eagle NY LEC calls out ALPA National over PSA TA.

Dear Captain Lee Moak and the ALPA Leadership Team –

I ask you to not ratify PSA’s Tentative Agreement with USAirways. I am fully cognizant of the nature of this request and repeated claims that ALPA is a “ground up” organization with decisions flowing from the pilots to the leadership. I am fully aware that a legal and seemingly-fair vote was taken on the PSA property, however I am deeply troubled about new information that has come to light since voting began on this TA, namely:

1) Financial data and industry (“peer”) information utilized by the PSA Leadership to craft talking points to this TA was not from vetted sources. Indeed ALPA’s own E&FA has pointedly disavowed being involved in the gathering or dissemination of this data. Jessie Coeling admitted to the SPSC Meeting that his facts and figures were “gleaned from the internet.”

2) PSA was not in distress, and the parent company was posting record profits and the TA very likely results in a net loss of aircraft.

3) PSA and American Eagle – and possibly Piedmont – all face the likelihood of a merger in the not to distant future. If allowed to stand, PSA’s TA will have extremely negative consequences for both Eagle and Piedmont pilots as our contracts and law require harmonization between contracts. Neither Eagle nor Piedemont pilots got a say in an TA that will very clearly and DIRECTLY affect them in a very negative fashion.*

4) This TA lowers almost every aspect of PSA’s CBA, which was already comparable to industry peers. Lowering the bar further will certainly result in even greater downward pressure on negotiations at other regional carriers both ALPA and non-ALPA. Downward pressure means lower compensation for the pilots and thus lower dues income for the association. I am curious as to this self-destructive tendency.

5) Section 40, Part 6 (2007) “Crisis and Concessionary Negotations” of the ALPA Administrative Manual has not been followed. Like the rules of the sky, the precepts to which we conduct our business are written, often in the blood of previous failures, in the calm before the crisis. ALPA Leadership is taking a dangerous step ignoring our own in-house “rules”.

6) MOST IMPORTANTLY: This TA was championed ad-nauseam at all levels of ALPA Leadership, and was crafted to engender a regional-airline industry a paradigm that ALPA Leadership desires to implement, but was crafted without input from the pilots. Evidence is given in Bruce York’s comments to the SPSC Conference on September 17th that all regional carriers must conform to “the cost box” (even if the better CBAs need to be gutted) and that “regional pilots should start at $30k and increase pay $10k per year for five years capping at $80k” and that longevity “should be capped at 4 years for FO and 12 years for CA across the regional industry.” This stated policy of degrading or destructing regional-airline careers for the enhancement of mainline careers has never been – to my knowledge – voted upon by the membership and thus should not be allowed until so acknowledged.
For these reasons, I ask you to delay affixing your signature to this TA until the above concerns can be addressed.

Respectfully,
Sam Pool
American Eagle***



Thank you SAM POOL, and anyone else at American Eagle for at least attempting to stop this complete pile at PSA from going through!!
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:32 PM
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Nicely done, Sam Pool. I really hope Moak has second thoughts on signing this, but I doubt it.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherEagleGuy View Post

1) Financial data and industry (“peer”) information utilized by the PSA Leadership to craft talking points to this TA was not from vetted sources. Indeed ALPA’s own E&FA has pointedly disavowed being involved in the gathering or dissemination of this data. Jessie Coeling admitted to the SPSC Meeting that his facts and figures were “gleaned from the internet.”

Not true. Rumors and conjecture.

2) PSA was not in distress, and the parent company was posting record profits and the TA very likely results in a net loss of aircraft.

PSA's leases on the CRJ200 were up at the end of their current CBA. PSA was told multiple times there was no future without cooperating with the merger. Anyone would consider this distress.

3) PSA and American Eagle – and possibly Piedmont – all face the likelihood of a merger in the not to distant future. If allowed to stand, PSA’s TA will have extremely negative consequences for both Eagle and Piedmont pilots as our contracts and law require harmonization between contracts. Neither Eagle nor Piedemont pilots got a say in an TA that will very clearly and DIRECTLY affect them in a very negative fashion.*

PSA will never merge with Piedmont, and surely not with American Eagle. The seniority structure at both properties have vastly higher longevities. The last time it was even hinted at merging with another pilot group the MEC chairman was voted out of office.

4) This TA lowers almost every aspect of PSA’s CBA, which was already comparable to industry peers. Lowering the bar further will certainly result in even greater downward pressure on negotiations at other regional carriers both ALPA and non-ALPA. Downward pressure means lower compensation for the pilots and thus lower dues income for the association. I am curious as to this self-destructive tendency.

This is another untrue statement. It's basically a display of ignorance, and hate at the same time.

5) Section 40, Part 6 (2007) “Crisis and Concessionary Negotations” of the ALPA Administrative Manual has not been followed. Like the rules of the sky, the precepts to which we conduct our business are written, often in the blood of previous failures, in the calm before the crisis. ALPA Leadership is taking a dangerous step ignoring our own in-house “rules”.

The merger creating the largest airline in the world, and being the small pilot group associated with the merger that will create the largest airline in the world while operating a fleet comprised of a majority of unwanted aging 50 seat regional jets would generally be accepted as a crisis in regards to the sustainability of employment.


6) MOST IMPORTANTLY: This TA was championed ad-nauseam at all levels of ALPA Leadership, and was crafted to engender a regional-airline industry a paradigm that ALPA Leadership desires to implement, but was crafted without input from the pilots. Evidence is given in Bruce York’s comments to the SPSC Conference on September 17th that all regional carriers must conform to “the cost box” (even if the better CBAs need to be gutted) and that “regional pilots should start at $30k and increase pay $10k per year for five years capping at $80k” and that longevity “should be capped at 4 years for FO and 12 years for CA across the regional industry.” This stated policy of degrading or destructing regional-airline careers for the enhancement of mainline careers has never been – to my knowledge – voted upon by the membership and thus should not be allowed until so acknowledged.

There is a reason for this, but common sense is lost on many who still refuse to read the entire agreement along with the CBA, and understand inner workings of a small airline like PSA.


For these reasons, I ask you to delay affixing your signature to this TA until the above concerns can be addressed.

Respectfully,
Sam Pool
American Eagle***
It should be expected that the disgruntled American Eagle pilots also publicly condemn their negotiating committee, and MEC at American Eagle for trying to pull a fast one, and create a B-scale for new hire pilots which was ultimately voted down, thus stymieing any chance of a fully written agreement with Group, and denying the American Eagle pilots the opportunity to have a decent deal because of the failings of their elected leaders.

Fix your own house before you condemn others especially when you do not know what you are talking about. That goes for any individual who has continuously spewed hate for the last month.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Derrpmetriy View Post
It should be expected that the disgruntled American Eagle pilots also publicly condemn their negotiating committee, and MEC at American Eagle for trying to pull a fast one, and create a B-scale for new hire pilots which was ultimately voted down, thus stymieing any chance of a fully written agreement with Group, and denying the American Eagle pilots the opportunity to have a decent deal because of the failings of their elected leaders.

Fix your own house before you condemn others especially when you do not know what you are talking about. That goes for any individual who has continuously spewed hate for the last month.




So being a member of upper management at USair, do you see the government allowing the merger with AA to go through?
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Derrpmetriy View Post
It should be expected that the disgruntled American Eagle pilots also publicly condemn their negotiating committee, and MEC at American Eagle for trying to pull a fast one, and create a B-scale for new hire pilots which was ultimately voted down, thus stymieing any chance of a fully written agreement with Group, and denying the American Eagle pilots the opportunity to have a decent deal because of the failings of their elected leaders.

Fix your own house before you condemn others especially when you do not know what you are talking about. That goes for any individual who has continuously spewed hate for the last month.
We found one yes vote!
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:40 PM
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Check your facts.................... The only "fast one" pulled here was to shoot the B scale down in flames, with authority. That's how you handle idiotic proposals from management (or would-be management, in this case.) Some things don't deserve the light of day, and we need to send a clear message it's just not even worth our time. WE did.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Beagle Capt View Post
Check your facts.................... The only "fast one" pulled here was to shoot the B scale down in flames, with authority. That's how you handle idiotic proposals from management (or would-be management, in this case.) Some things don't deserve the light of day, and we need to send a clear message it's just not even worth our time. WE did.
Your union designed the B-scale in this case. It was a proposal. Stop trying to rewrite history. It would have been a pay cap at 12 years for captains more than likely if presented to the pilot group. Nope can't have that. A flow through to mainline wasn't enough for the senior guys. Now you guys are staring the down the barrel of the reality of being an regional airline that has been for sale for years being told they are going out of business because you cost too much, for years, signing a 16 year contract, and conceding contractually to every threat, with 3000 pilots, and 170/215 aircraft being 50 seat or less junk airplanes.

Everyone from the outside looking in understands your frustration. We all know those who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

Instead of focusing all of your hate and anger at picking the wrong representation for your union, trying to use PSA as a scape goat (WHY NOT Republic? Oh because they are the same size, and fly bigger airplanes, I have no idea? Pick on the obscure small guy) and not having a more intellectual group guiding your pilots it is obvious American Eagle needs to clean house.

If the survival of your company isn't worth your time then why bother even reading the news at other properties?

It wasn't long ago on these message boards the very same loud mouths crying about PSA, (PSA who??) were crying about your union's misuse of dues money, and abuse of power, and now you are lauding your unions actions... excuse me in-actions and failings. American Eagle probably needs to recall all of their elected union officers as they are the reason why the pilots are in the situation they are in. Absolutely mismanaged 110%

American Eagle ALPA has made it loud and clear to management that they are stubborn, indignant, disgruntled, unwilling, and uncooperative. The pilots chose them. Your union wanted to make Group management their enemy? God save you. They have a poor working relationship. You made your bed, now sleep in it, and stop making excuses and trying to blame others for your shortcomings.

The only redemption I see for American Eagle is other contract carriers being unable to staff additional aircraft (PSA, Mesa, Republic), history contradicting itself by giving Eagle a second chance to negotiate, and making themselves more competitive than Piedmont and Air Wisconsin. It is obvious Group wants control otherwise airplanes, and PSA had the composition already in place to make it work with minimal changes to their CBA. If Group didn't care the aircraft would probably already be going to GoJet, but I guess even they have some standards.

Lastly remember this most recent nightmare in the regional industry began when Delta Air Lines management gave Delta Air Lines pilots raises while pressing the barrel of a loaded gun to the forehead of the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba pilots. The regional battle will not be won at the regional level. It has to be recaptured at mainline.

The truth is refreshing isn't it? We all know you American Eagle guys are not used to having to play in the sandbox with other companies. Now have that shot of Maker's and go to bed.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Beagle Capt View Post
Check your facts.................... The only "fast one" pulled here was to shoot the B scale down in flames, with authority. That's how you handle idiotic proposals from management (or would-be management, in this case.) Some things don't deserve the light of day, and we need to send a clear message it's just not even worth our time. WE did.
Your union designed the B-scale in this case. It was a proposal. Stop trying to rewrite history. It would have been a pay cap at 12 years for captains more than likely if presented to the pilot group. Nope can't have that. A flow through to mainline wasn't enough for the senior guys. Now you guys are staring the down the barrel of the reality of being an regional airline that has been for sale for years being told they are going out of business because you cost too much, for years, signing a 16 year contract, and conceding contractually to every threat, with 3000 pilots, and 170/215 aircraft being 50 seat or less junk airplanes.

Everyone from the outside looking in understands your frustration. We all know those who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

Instead of focusing all of your hate and anger at picking the wrong representation for your union, trying to use PSA as a scape goat (WHY NOT Republic? Oh because they are the same size, and fly bigger airplanes, I have no idea? Pick on the obscure small guy) and not having a more intellectual group guiding your pilots it is obvious American Eagle needs to clean house.

If the survival of your company isn't worth your time then why bother even reading the news at other properties?

It wasn't long ago on these message boards the very same loud mouths crying about PSA, (PSA who??) were crying about your union's misuse of dues money, and abuse of power, and now you are lauding your unions actions... excuse me in-actions and failings. American Eagle probably needs to recall all of their elected union officers as they are the reason why the pilots are in the situation they are in. Absolutely mismanaged 110%

American Eagle ALPA has made it loud and clear to management that they are stubborn, indignant, disgruntled, unwilling, and uncooperative. The pilots chose them. Your union wanted to make Group management their enemy? God save you. They have a poor working relationship. You made your bed, now sleep in it, and stop making excuses and trying to blame others for your shortcomings.

The only redemption I see for American Eagle is other contract carriers being unable to staff additional aircraft (PSA, Mesa, Republic), history contradicting itself by giving Eagle a second chance to negotiate, and making themselves more competitive than Piedmont and Air Wisconsin. It is obvious Group wants control otherwise airplanes, and PSA had the composition already in place to make it work with minimal changes to their CBA. If Group didn't care the aircraft would probably already be going to GoJet, but I guess even they have some standards.

Lastly remember this most recent nightmare in the regional industry began when Delta Air Lines management gave Delta Air Lines pilots raises while pressing the barrel of a loaded gun to the forehead of the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba pilots. The regional battle will not be won at the regional level. It has to be recaptured at mainline.

The truth is refreshing isn't it? We all know you American Eagle guys are not used to having to play in the sandbox with other companies. Now have that shot of Maker's and go to bed.
Do you even know there's a new Chairman in the eagle house?

Do you know Eagle guys have flow thru all the way to the last hire of Oct 11, 2011? Do you even know all eagle pilots after OCT 11 have preferential hiring at AA?

The first 25 people of the 824 group it's being already awarded a slot in AA.

Did you know that eagle B-scale TA wouldn't affect not even 1 pilot of the 2900 currently at eagle?

Did you even thought about if we had said YES, PSA might had a worse deal that your "minimal changes" into your contract.

Sorry man, you need an eye opener. Enjoy your new Cr9 and your frozen pay, when Group decides they won't hire you with a lame excuse.

Btw RAH, Mesa, Pinnacle and GoJet just got forgotten when PSA said yes. PSA is the new ugly duck in the regionals. Suck it up until someone else beat you with a worse 10 year contract.

As for me, I will still accept JS and try to change my CA mind if they say No PSA pilot in the plane.
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