Mesa MAPD program shortcut or is it?
 

Most guys think they are getting a jumpstart on their career by attending the mesa training program. Here is a few things worth considering.

1. You will get your 1st part 121 job quick no lie about that.

2. Then you will watch many former CFI's or Cargo dogs beat you to the left seat. By the time you have the necassary hrs in your logbook to upgrade to captain the CFI's and C-dogs (who have the same seniority) will be applying elsewhere with triple the amount of PIC on their RESUME. Remember PIC is everything, OK that and who you know.

3. With most of your experience coming from the right seat flying with an experienced captain. Be ready to learn what CFI'ing is all about once the newbies start coming thru enjoy.:D

Agreed. In addition to this, why would you spend this much money on the PACE program ($10k) to get hired at 250ish hours when they are taking people off the street with less than 500. In other words, you could instruct at a busy flight school and have the flight time in less time than it takes to do the MAPD program. All while earning income!

As far as their primary/ab initio program, a much better deal is to do ATP's 90 day Career Pilot Program. You instruct at the end of it and have chances at more than one company: http://www.pilotjobs.com/ And.. all of those companies aren't MESA!

And while you're at it, why would you go to Mesa at 500 hours when other finer regionals are hiring at 500-600 hours!??!? That's the question of the decade.

XJT, Republic, SKYW, Eagle are all much better choices. Ornstein Air can tank for all we care.

Good Question Ski Patrol. It really is not any different then going to Flight Saftey or ATP for that matter. And in todays hiring world you might as well stay at home and get your ratings.

The one thing that happens to those new hires who get stuck in the seat for a little longer while Jr people upgrade around them is that they are building turbine multi time, not 152 "Oh My GOD" time. They will also find that they can hold hard lines once they are eligible to upgrade where the Jr Captain is stuck on reserve for christ knows how long, ask Extreme150 about that.

First off, do not work for Mesa, at least not 'til they get a decent contract, and J.O. gets struck by lightning while riding his bike.

Second, as mentioned above, is a bit of a trade off, do you get your seniority number first and build your time on the line, or do you wait just a bit longer and get in but actually have the time required to upgrade. Either way is up to you and your needs. Ab Initio, and programs like this one are about to become very popular, and within the next 5 years due to the pilot shortage upon us, most regional carriers will be hiring at 250, 300 hours....pure demand and supply, and demand is much bigger right now.

So, I guess it boils down to economics, do you drop 12K or however much it is now? Or build a little more time and wait for the industry to catch up to you, and maybe have a few more options?

I would say no, you wouldn't. It's about 18-20 months for the average person to go from start to finish, zero to hero in the ab initio program. That's a lot of time compared to other programs. Reference ATP's 90-day program, or even a self-paced program could do zero to CFI/I/MEI in 6 months or less. With the lack of CFI's at most areas around the country you could easily be 1000-1200TT within 18 months of starting flight training. You've spent less money, and have quite a bit more hours which makes you more marketable to companies other than strictly Mesa. You could go freight or regional.

I would say this probably isn't the case most times. Maybe at SkyWest right now (for the EMB) but not most places with a 2, 3, or 4+ year upgrade time.

Some of the best captains I flew with as a new FO weren't CFI's. So this post would be N/A.



So I would conclude by saying MAPD isn't a good program in todays environment, but not for the points you raised.

Allright Fosters we agree on something MAPD is not the way to go. However my post is from observations first hand ya know I work here. So I can say with absolute confidence I know what I'm talking about. And no I did not go there I CFI'd and 135.
Cheers

I'm not really sure where you work. Sorry I hit a nerve. I thought my observations were accurate as well. I've been reading mesahub, upgrades except for the 1900 and D8 aren't that low. The "Upgrades just around the corner!" paints a pretty good picture of what I'm trying to convey.

Why Im Going Pace
 

1...I DO NOT WANT TO INSTRUCT. I know I would not enjoy it at all, and instructors should be liking their jobs. I hate the guys who are only in it for the hours and have no goals teaching besides hours and a paycheck. That and I cant help but emphasize that Riddle is 142, so flight times a whole lot less

2...Im walking from Riddle with ~200 hours...not like its going to be that much of a towering debt compared to what I have now. Plus, factor in flight costs if I was going to get hours from Billy Bobs Hangar to get up to minimums assuming $130/hr.

3...15 weeks to the right seat? Far shorter time than it would be with that first point I mentioned. Ill have the ratings and be Riddle-ized, and all they need to do is Mesa-fy me.


Yes its not the prefered way of getting into 121, yes Ill probably be despised by some who have been it it the 'old fashion way', yes it is going to cost me, but Ill take it. Argue me otherwise if my logic is flawed.

I may get blasted for this........but hasn't your logic already been flawed?


Riddle then mesa? Dude!!!!

Walk from Riddle yes. Go to PACE debateable.

In order to be captain on the jet at mesa you need minimum 2500tt with 1000 multi PIC or 2000 multi SIC and then there are the Int'l ICAO mins. In effect you spend 1.5 to 2 years extra (over your counterpart the CFI) building worthless SIC time. You finally upgrade having rarely made a decision in your aviation career it makes for a handful when the s#$t hits the fan.

With that being said if you do go to pace, make damn sure you get the beech 1900 so you can learn to be a real pilot 1st before hitting the jet.
Course all this is just my .02 from 1st hand observation.

I know the bid for the Beech is the only thing that would advance my career. In all honesty, worst case scenario, Ill go FSS or ATC. Ive got 9 years from now to choose that road if I want to. Not too bad of a set up for starting pay with Lockheed at the helm...

Riddle then Mesa? Riddle doesnt guarentee the 121 job. Pace has the 90% hire rate, and as a Riddle Rat, whats not to love about me?

Hell, they just went down to 300-1 and Ive heard rumors of lower. One year left for me here. Maybe Ill be able to bypass Pace and go straight into the muck yall refer to it as...

Here is the deal, do you have a multi engine Commercial instrument rating? If not go, run to ATP and get your multi on the weekend. Walk, no run from here too away from San Juan, don't spend another dime.

Call Airmidwest Direct, PM me for the # and talk to the Director of Operations. You'll be in the next class, I am not kidding. Pheonix has just put it on ICT to find flight crews for themselves. This is because Mesa is so bogged down trying to replace vacancies.

SkiPatrol hit it on the head, go to the 1900 and learn to fly. You may know it all without flight instructing, trust me when I say you know nothing, but you will definately get an education flying the 1900!

Here is the worst case scenario, you'll figure out what a dump this place is in 6 months, in the mean time you've build 4-500 hours of multi turbine 121, you'll be able to go anywhere.

STOP blowing your money or whos ever money it is. (whos) ?:rolleyes:

Grounded I like your posts but with contract neg's around the corner don't you think we are shooting ourselves in the foot, by recommending others for the job? I think the upper levels understand this that's why they are offering $500.00 for each recommended new hire. Once again they are banking on personal pilot greed. Course in the case of Outlaw I think you were just trying to help a brotha out.
Just a thought.

Everyone is kind of helping me out here, and I appreciate that. Ive still got another lap around the track with Riddle, so Im walking next year (with commercial multi instrument.) Another reason I look towards Mesa is because I know the people who have shot through that pipeline in no time. SG, I know the game might take a different form this time next year...btw I take it your with Airmidwest? How long if you dont mind me asking...As for what Ski said...if the insider is offered $500, Id probably call them up and ask for a 50/50 split...in all fairness, of course...

Before long
 

Before much longer everyone will be getting hired with less than 500 hours anyway. It really doesnt matter if one goes to an accelerated program or not.


SkyHigh

:D You know the funny thing is that there are people right now paying MAPD for a job when there are guys getting on with less than 500 at mesa and rumors of commercial/multi at other airlines. Can anybody say dumb dumb?

You would think at a point well above wet-commercial level insurance companies and training costs would set a cost-determined experience minimum. Seeing is believing. I just hope the lack of experience of regional new hires doesn't cost anyone's life. They still have full control of the airplane at times such as late final and when the CA goes to hockey.

I see your point. I thought outlaw was out of Riddle and going pace sooner. I was just trying to help him out. The contract negotiations are liable to be a joke. This clown is gearing up to send 50 seat aircraft to china on a wet lease whether we agree to his terms or not.

My point to outlaw was too stop spending money. If you want to build multi time, come here get your time and get out! There is no getting out "the other side" as outlaw stated below and under no uncertain terms is there any "all fairness" to asking to split the $500. If you can afford to go to riddle or afford to blow money on PACE you can afford doing with out $250. Trust me the line pilot at mesa needs it more! You will someday too.

To answer your question I have been robbed by this company for just over a year now.

No there is not - outlaw is a tool. Don't let this spoil your view of riddle people, we're not all like this guy. Asking someone who just got you a job for half their referral fee is a smack in the face. If someone asked me that question I would hit the delete button when they emailed their stuff to me.

minimums
 

Throughout aviation history there have been many more instances of experienced airline pilots having accidents due to complacency than accidents being blamed to inexperience. I honestly can't recall a single one.

1000 hours in a 172 doing touch and goes doesnt really add much to a pilots knowledge base to fly an airliner either. In the modern age of automated RJ's experience really isn't all that important anymore.

SkyHigh

Why anyone with a Comm/Inst/ME would want to blow $10k-$12k to fly at a place like Mesa is just beyond me.

Alright, maybe I do come off as a tool...but payback is something I am notorious for. I dont forget those who right me and those who wrong me. It was an offer, not a demand. SG, if I run into you, coffees on me. Fosters, youre buying your own.

Future
 

Soon MAPD and other "cadet" or "direct entry" programs will be the norm for regional and perhaps major airline employment.

SkyHigh

At the rate things are going it is going to become the norm for direct entry to the majors. If they even exist in the future.

Someone does you a favor and you want them to pay you? Get over yourself, and quick.

And no, it wasn't an "offer". You can't "offer" to *let* someone pay you, you ask.

Whatever dude. :rolleyes:

Im already in debt to them, so why not go a little deeper...which if you think about it is shallower than Riddle then Pace...

Where is home for you if you dont mind me asking...cause there are only a few places that I can think of where "whatever dude" constitutes a conclusion...

Huh?

When I was at MAPD I met a riddle guy, $150k in debt. He had the same thought - he couldn't do anything about the $$ so why not spend more! LOL. Poor SOB.

Someone please answer, why the heck would you want to spend $12k on PACE to work for Mesa? This is Mesa we're talking about, isn't it? Led by JO? We are talking about the same Mesa aren't we?

Who? Someone who's too lazy. Someone who doesn't want to instruct to get to 1000 and would rather pay to solve their problems. That's the basis for pay for training.

is that a pun or just irony?

As for AirWillie, he mentions instructing. I mentioned before, I dont want to instruct because I know there would be no joy out of it for me. No joy out of it means no joy for the students I teach. Instructors should be doing it because the passion is there, not because theyre 'lazy'; theyre the ones who are trying to get the younger ones enthused. Ive ran into a few instructors who were just in it for the hours...times like those I really thought about taking the ATC track...

I did enjoy instructing, but even if you're not too exicited about it, you will learn a great deal. Consider it the next phase of YOUR training, cuz that's what it is. Remember, when you become an airline captain you are an instructor by definition...there are regional FO's who can't talk on the radio or do x-wind landings to save their lives (and 52 others) :eek: A little cfi experience comes in handy then!

Then DONT. Buy a plane, find a way, log that PIC time. Just because you don't want to instruct doesn't mean that you should buy a job.

Hey Willie....last time I saw you were admitting to being a total newbie to flying and most certainly weren't a 121 pilot. This still true???

When did I say I was? I'm not a newbie but certaily not a 121 pilot. I get a few pm's from awac guys asking if I work there. Maybe I should change my name.

Joy? You want Joy, get yourself Microsoft flight sim and a case of cold beer, if your old enough and stop blowing money on flight training to become a professional pilot.

Who the hell said there is supposed to be Joy? Its called Work for a reason Son!

I'll say it again, everyone should have to work a REAL JOB before becoming a professional pilot. Then you'll realize how easy this is.

Sorry about the "Son" thing I wasn't talking down to you.

Was this with a Hank Hill voice? That is how it sounded in my twisted mind anyways. :)

Damnit Bobby, you got that right!

True, but to me Id probably **** off the next gen of pilots before they even got their private. Then again Ive been spoiled...Im split between to guys...one of which did 135 work and came right back because he like instructing...the other just never looked beyond teaching from the right seat...maybe its just my experiences but its still how I feel