Lifer at a regional... really that bad?
 

Given I'm in my mid-40s and just now applying to regionals, I'm wondering if any of you are, or know any "lifers" that actually don't mind it. I always say there are two frames of mind... a positive one and a negative one. No matter the industry, you'll have whiners and complainers, and you'll have those that make what they can out of it. I'm in the latter group. Plus, I don't have kids so I'm a little more mobile when it comes to having to relocate, and my cost of living is minimal.

Sure, I'm still not too old to make it to a major or legacy, but I'll never get beyond F/O, or if I do upgrade, it'll always be a junior domicile and/or narrowbody.

Any regional lifers who still have some self respect left and a decent QOL?

You're young enough for majors and should shoot for legacy/SWA. No question about that. If for no other reason than you won't have a job if you don't have an FO, and if legacies have to hire CFI's (math says they might) then there won't be many CFI's at regionals.

The only legit question is... what happens if I get stuck? In that case some things are under your control, others are not...

You can pick a regional which has base(s) that you like. Base(s) plural is better, since bases come and go.

You can choose a regional which is generally known for being "less toxic" than others, and generally has good QOL (although QOL is often totally variable depending base/seniority).

If legacies don't pan out, then look at LCC's. That will depend on their growth, contracts, and other issues at the time so there's no right answer on that today. Might want to do LCC, or might be better off staying at a regional. It will depend on where things stand at the time.

If hired at a legacy by age 50, you should upgrade and still have plenty of time to progress (retirements). Or you can hang out as a senior FO and still make good money (significantly better than RJ CA). For example... regionals might match 5% on the 401k, legacies will typically contribute 15% ish. Contribute, not match.

Bottom line, regional lifer, you won't know if it's a good idea until your 65th birthday. Especially given the uncertainty of the future of the business model, you'll be along for the ride and in suspense the whole way.

Bad things can happen to majors too, but you'll typically see it coming a long way off.

You still have PLENTY of time for a career...20 years!

Don't sell yourself short. Your career path should take you way past a regional...and yes, a major QOL is COMPLETELY different from a regional QOL!

Friends don't let friends become lifers. You are not old at all. Move on, brother!

All good points. I completely agree that a Legacy is WAY obtainable and even enough time to upgrade and build up a decent retirement.

That said, I have flown with several lifers at my regional that are absolutely ok with where they are and have no plans to try to move on. The pay is enough to live a decent lifestyle (depending on where you live) and once the seniority is built up enough to have more control over your schedule it can be hard for some to give that up. Is it the majors? of course not. Can it be good enough for the right person. Absolutely!

Frankly you have to get lucky to enjoy a comfortable existence at a regional to age 65. Too many things can go wrong, and we know one of them is coming for sure (pilot shortage).

There are definitely people doing it, but it's really hard to determine if you'll be one of them in 20 years.

There is nothing wrong with flying a regional jet for the remainder of ones career. I have known plenty who decided to do so even with having other options open to them. Every person is different in terms of what they want out of this job and only you can know what will work the best for you. No job is absolutely perfect (yes even the legacy one). Schedules, bases, equipment , money, job security, position (CA/FO) to name a few are all pros and cons one has to balance. This is necessary in order to find a perfect fit that YOU want.
If a left seat of a regional ends up working for you, there is absolutely no shame in staying there and enjoying the rest of the ride.

Thanks guys. Not to sell myself short, but I came from the days of post 9/11 and the Great Recession. So it's in my nature to be skeptical and cautious... not pessimistic mind you... just cautious. Some of my friends threw in the towel.. so did I for 10 years but I'm back in the game and flying never left my blood. I'm just going to see how far this takes me.

Could anyone tell me if any of the following airlines would NOT be good choices (assuming I live in base): Horizon, Skywest, Endeavor, Envoy, Republic, Air Wisconsin, PSA. None of these would be considered "toxic" right?

Definitely don’t sell yourself short, especially in this hiring climate. If you want wide body flying you have plenty of time for it. At the Delta expo a few weeks ago fleet planning mentioned that new hires could start going into the 330 when the 330 NEO’s start coming. New guys are already getting the ER’s in some classes. It’s probably not taking guys long to get wide body flying over at UA either. As far as regionals go The only place I would honestly avoid is Horizon. Things seem to be moving slow over there. The lifers at my shop are pretty happy for the most part especially with the new TA that may get passed, but they have been through a lot. I personally wouldn’t get comfortable at any regional. We’re contractors and if mainline doesn’t like how something is being done, or someone can do it cheaper guess who’s getting the boot. Just my .02

True, a friend of mine went through indoc @ Horizon...that was over a month ago, still getting paid to sit at home while he waits for a sim class. Seems there's a training staff shortage right along with a pilot shortage.

No sooner had I thought one of my chosen airlines was a good choice (starts with E), and first post in the thread someone is saying how bad the schedules suck, worst QOL in the industry, blah blah. Is there ANYWHERE that 's good? I'm thinking to heck with it... just go move to Alaska and make a ton of money in a Dash 8 100.

Have you considered Netjets?

Horizon is iffy.

Worried about being a regional lifer? Go to on the AA Wholly Owned regionals with the flow. Piedmont will get you to AA the fastest of the group, followed by Envoy then PSA. If you want the better QOL of the 3 and are cool with a 9 year flow then PSA is the place to go. If you want DFW ORD or MIA then go to Envoy.

I would have been happy to be a Lifer at my regional if they would have maintained a good QOL...but they did not recognize the pilot shortage till too late so I moved on...

Let me through this at you. You become a lifer at xyz regional. At some of them you top out the pay scale in 20 years as a capatain at maybe 120 an hour? Vs you do 4 years maybe at a regional and get picked up at a major and be a lifer first officer. After 3 years your making 190 an hour on a wide body, sure you would be on reserve on it but if you live in base it's easy money. Or you could be a senior first officer on a narrow body. Many many more options at a major, better pay, if you get in the next 5 years or so your seniority will go up. To me it's a no brainer. I knew a few lifers at my regional and they all said they don't want to give up QOL. I get it, I do, but if they can suck it up for a year, maybe 2, the QOL at a major is significantly better.

I would say that QOL wise if you can get into the top 10-20% of the seniority list at a regional then things are ok. But how long does that take at most places? The top 20% at regionals are pretty much there permanently and there is very little turnover. So, to get into that 20% you would have to get in at a new airline. Not many new regionals starting up nowadays.

So the short answer is to look outside the regionals for quality of life. My opinion would change if they offered new hires 17 days off per month, 4 weeks vacation per year, etc right from day one. Which, btw, if they really wanted to attract pilots this would do more than 10K bonuses and stuff like that.

I can't understand the regional lifer mentality. Take a paycut for a year, then year 2 making more money than a 20 year regional CA at most places. Yeah lose some QOL, but pay will make up for it later on. Plus more job security if you are printing your own tickets. Most regional lifers I've come across are just bitter. Don't be that guy.

Not all regional lifers are there just because they don't want to temporarily give up QOL. Many are simply unhireable at a major for various reasons. (DUI's, no degree, busted checkrides, etc) Most regionals will fail within the next decade and the whole lifer debate will be moot. No need to hate on lifers. :cool:

Yes Delta already has payscales for RJ's. They'll simply bring them on property when the time comes.

They might bring them on property, but will they bring YOU on property, better to be proactive and try to get on now than cross your fingers for that day.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Just because Delta has rj rates doesn't mean they're just going to place a bunch of regional pilots onto their list. :rolleyes:

No shame, but financial risk and lack of stability (more so than majors).

SeaLand

My two cents. I am going to do what I criticize...offer opinions(not advice) regarding someone else's life decisions.
I am always puzzled at the certitude many pilots have as to what career/flying decisions other people should make, even though they don't know them.

There is no stability/security in any flying job. The only major airline I ever worked for shut down in the middle of the night while I was on a trip. Another airline used to brag how they had never lost money, even during the gulf war, then it was had never furloughed, then eventually bought by a leveraged buyout company (to avoid a takeover by another airline) then eventually sold and liquidated. Anyway, you get the idea....there are no "for sures" and history in this business suggests that this temporary period of prosperity will not last.

So my opinion....regional flying can be rewarding and satisfying. If it isn't so for a given individual, it is often due to looking into the future to the detriment of the present. There is much to be said for achieving contentment with having "enough". Most of us got into this because we love flying airplanes and have a love for the profession. Unfortunately we sometimes let other opinions as to what we should do diminish our enjoyment of what we are doing.
So...the world according to MaxQ(a bit of it anyway)...march to your own drummer, to thine own self be true.
Money doesn't mean much unless you don't have any.

Plenty of those at envoy! Their hatred(jealousy more like it) towards AA pilots is insane.

Money cant buy happiness, but it sure helps :)

I meant the aircraft only. Of course I am not talking about a flow or staple. But the math is looking like once mainline is continuously hiring massive numbers of pilots from the regionals or any other operation, it's only a matter of time before they go under. This is because they are already fighting for pilots at regionals, what happens when the attrition gets even worse and the regionals cannot staff their flights? They are not going to pay more at a regional than mainline so at that point the party's over. The real problem is there are just so few people in the flight school pipeline these days to come to the regionals. I can assure you that DL, AA and UAL will hire everyone they need to keep things running smoothly as the forced retirements hit. My point is they are not going to park aircraft at mainline so they can help save some garbage regional or 135 outfit by not hiring their pilots. People are ready and willing to take jobs at mainline, not so much regionals, hence they allocate the aircraft to keep the flying going and hire what they need.

Happiness is not for sale, but a short-term rental is possible. :D

Yes. Lifer at a regional really is that bad.
 

You’re not even close to being too old to fly for a Legacy or LCC. I came from the regionals (known as commuters back then) so I mean no disrespect when I say the regionals are minor league. I can only speak for SWA but they consistently hire pilots in their 50’s. Yes the upgrade is long but the end of contract (2020) 5th year FO pay is $167/hour and 12 year FO pay is $196/hour plus 15% B Fund and typical 10% profit sharing. 12-13 days on is a normal junior-ish schedule. I don’t know of any regional airline captain pay or QOL that even comes close to that. DAL and other legacies have faster upgrades and widebody pay scales which makes a career at a regional look even more bleak by comparison. Not to mention the regionals are dying on the vine as we speak.

Don’t sell yourself short by striving to stay in the minor leagues. Make your time at a regional just a time building experience on your way to a legacy, LCC or fractional like NetJets. Just my humble opinion.

Money won't buy happiness, but lack of money can degrade happiness.

Coming soon to a theater near you.

Top out as captain for $120 after many years or make $150-$200 in your third year as FO at a major? Get a 16% retirement contribution or get 1% with a 6% match? Get real representation from ALPA National at a major or ...? Get perks/assistance such as dry cleaning reimbursement, higher per-diem, better moving benefits, in-flight meals, higher priority non-rev travel or get fewer/less of those things. Have more aircraft/schedule/route options or be limited to one or two aircraft types and short legs? Stay at diplomat quality downtown hotels or stay at the LaQuinta in the hotel farm by Target and Cracker Barrel?

Obviously majors aren't for everyone, but I like them.

I think either ALPA or APA conducted a study which concluded that the break even point is seven years. If you can get to a legacy by age 58, you will make more money even if you don't upgrade than if you stayed at a regional as a topped out Captain.

So if money is your priority, then the math speaks for itself. If instead you value QOL or not retiring as an FO, then those would support the case for staying at a regional.

That sounds about right. I would even say more like age 60 because of the 401k... the big boys typically just dump 15-16% into your account, no match required. Regionals, you might get a 5-6% match after ten+ years. Also the bigs are starting to jack up junior FO pay, in anticipation of the need to compete for quality applicants.

But QOL is likely to be better at a major than at a regional in most cases, even for a junior major pilot. This assumes you're old enough that the kids are out of the house and weekends/holidays are not vital.

If it's a prestige thing.. nobody really knows or cares about CA vs. FO, except for pilots and we all know it's seniority, not merit based. But everybody knows the difference between a regional and mainline... cuz they all hate RJ's.

This is not true anymore. First year legacy pay beats out a lot of the regional CAs. Second year is well beyond at 125 to 135/hr. Add in 16% 401k, profit sharing and better work rules you’re much better off almost immediately.

Thanks everyone who kept me optimistic!