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121 Pilots! I have a Reg Q to discuss

Old 03-23-2007, 09:15 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
...There is a 16 hour duty day that your bud may or may not have busted. (121.505 (b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.)...
14 CFR Part 121.505 applies to Supplemental Operations, not Domestic (I assume since it's Mesa, the operations are Domestic). As stated above, there is no "16-hour" rule stated in Part 121.471.

In fact, when you get done with the math, the maximum duty day may be 15 hours, not 16. If you are scheduled to fly more than nine hours in a rolling 24 hour period, your rest may only be reduced to a minimum of nine hours, not eight - Part 121.471(c)(3). Example:

Day One
Show time 14:00
Leg 1 ABC - DEF 15:00 17:30 2:30
Leg 2 DEF - ABC 18:00 20:30 2:30
Leg 3 ABC - XYZ 21:30 22:30 1:00
Off Duty at 22:45
Total flight time: 6:00

Day Two
On Duty at 7:45
Leg 4 XYZ - ABC 8:30 9:30 1:00
Leg 5 ABC - GHI 10:00 12:30 2:30
Off Duty at 12:45
Total flight time: 3:30

In this scenario the pilot is scheduled/flew a total of 9:30 within a 24 hour period. He was off duty at 22:45 the first night and returned at 7:45 the next morning. He received nine hours of reduced rest which is the minimum allowed in this scenario, not eight. This is legal - again 121.471(c)(3). He must now be given a rest period of at least 12 hours and that rest period must begin by 22:45 on day two (...a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period (in this case, 22:45 day one)). Since the compensatory rest began at 12:45 day two, he's fine.

Scheduled deadhead is not rest. Part 121.471(f) states: "time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period." I have bolded the two sections that apply here. The bolded parts mean "deadheading."

However, back to 121.471(c)(3) (or (c)(2) or (c)(1) or 121.471(b) for that matter). Remember the rest must begin no later than 24 hours after the start of the previous rest. In the scenario above, as long as the company can schedule to deadhead him to his home base and off duty/on rest by 22:45 of day two, and the rest is of the correct length before he has to return to duty, he's legal. But if he was scheduled to start a two hour deadhead at 20:46 on day two, he would not be legal, because he must be on rest by 22:45 of day two.

So it really does depend on when he started and what hours he flew.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 03-23-2007 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS View Post
14 CFR Part 121.505 applies to Supplemental Operations, not Domestic (I assume since it's Mesa, the operations are Domestic). As stated above, there is no "16-hour" rule stated in Part 121.471.

In fact, when you get done with the math, the maximum duty day may be 15 hours, not 16. If you are scheduled to fly more than nine hours in a rolling 24 hour period, your rest may only be reduced to a minimum of nine hours, not eight - Part 121.471(c)(3).

That is exactly right- I was going to mention that in some cases you have a 15 hour duty day. Great job explaining it. That was clarified in the Whitlow Letter I believe.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:17 PM
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The part 91 flights just release you from duty. They still count towards your commercial flying. You are still being paid for these flights.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:40 PM
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My bad on the supplemental,

but, in fact, a normal duty day is no more than 16 hours (provided the subsequent rest period is at least 10 hours) and could be as little as 13 hours (for 9 or more scheduled block hours).....since the rest is a backward looking clock from the scheduled completion of your day.

And, I can't understand how one seat of a regularly scheduled pax flight could be under 91, when, the crew flying it is under 121. management waves the magic wand and poof you're suddenly 91?

It also sounds as if this particular guy was launched off of reserve....so, is the 16+ duty day from the start of his reserver period or when he showed up at the airport.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by XtremeF150 View Post
No I think the confusion is in Duty Day. There is no regulation about a duty day. You just can't accept a FLIGHT assignment unless you have had at least 8 hours min rest in the past 24 hours. If the duty day is extended DH or 91 flight, you can not return to duty for 121 flying until you have had a legal rest period. I do agree that Mesa sucks and mainly because they try to convince all the new hires to accept crappy assignment like this.
This situation was completely legal...what the regs don't come out and clearly say, but is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense is that all of the FAR flight & duty time regs exist to prevent you from conducting 121 operations while fatigued (lets not get into their effectiveness right now )

The FAR's DO NOT IN ANY WAY exist to prevent the company from making you work long days or go without sleep...the FAA does not give a rat's @zz about you after the 121 flying is done!

If you are DONE conducting 121 operations, the duty regs are legally COMPLETELY NON-APPLICABLE...you can fly 91 and/or deadhead all you like as long as you are not serving as a 121 crewmember (JS-ing doesn't count here). The only thing you have to ensure is that all of your required rest and flight time limits are complied with PRIOR TO YOUR NEXT 121 FLIGHT.

The only remotely gray area here is compensatory rest, because the exact wording of that reg reads as though you must start compensatory rest within 24 hours of the start of reduced rest...the real-world application of this is that it only applies in the middle of a trip where more 121 flying will occur after the rest...if you are done with 121 work, the company doesn't even have to give you compensatory rest. Again, the FAA does not care about you or your beauty sleep, and they did not write a reg to force the company to be nice to you!
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:07 AM
  #26  
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Deadheading is always part of your 16 hour duty day. That is why you can't accept a deadhead flight if it will cause you to exceed 16 hours for that 24 hour period (the company will be forced to put you up in a hotel. *OR* one way around this is for the employee to give up the deadhead with the approval of scheduling, and commute back to domicile. In this case you are NOT DEADHEADING ANYMORE. Why? Because you're not getting paid.)

You CAN be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flying in a 24 hour period... As long as you have no more than 8 hours of flying between rest periods, and your duty day is less than 16 hrs. If, on a day of work you can't fly more than 5 hours because of the 30 in 7 rule, and you're scheduled for 5 hours, you can fly every leg in your schedule no matter how long each leg takes as long as you don't bust the 16 hour duty day.
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by WestCoaster View Post
Deadheading is always part of your 16 hour duty day. That is why you can't accept a deadhead flight if it will cause you to exceed 16 hours for that 24 hour period (the company will be forced to put you up in a hotel. *OR* one way around this is for the employee to give up the deadhead with the approval of scheduling, and commute back to domicile. In this case you are NOT DEADHEADING ANYMORE. Why? Because you're not getting paid.)
THERE IS NO 16 HOUR DUTY DAY PER THE FAA! Now most contracts limit scheduled duty days to 14 hours and ACTUAL duty days to 16 hours or less. As I said long time before, you only need to look back from the end of your last 121 flight segment and find at a min 8 hours. Now, after that, if you fly again you have to have your comp. rest that starts from the end of the reduced rest period.

But you can always deadhead, or do a part 91 ferry flight out side of this imaginary 16 hours.
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Old 03-24-2007, 06:40 AM
  #28  
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Look guys it really isn't worth arguing about but I can tell who has worked for Mesa because they REALLY push the regs to their limits. I think most of you believe that you truly can't DH past 16 hours but I guess you wont believe anyone so just call the FAA and ask ...I can ASSURE you that this is legal and if you are dropping your DH and jumping back to domicile you are only losing some pay that the company owes you.
The 2 things that you can do are A) tell the company NO and make them give you a hotel, because they can't make you DH after 16...at least Mesa can't per our contract.
B) Take the DH over 16 because it benefits you and get the extra pay.

Me personally I will walk off the plane if its going to 16:01 just to be a thorn in crew trac's backside However I would like to see you guys get a mainline flight to taxi back to the gate because you are going to time out on a DH. Are you ppl serious...the CA would send you back to your seat
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:43 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by RedBaron007 View Post
In case anyone is interested, here are the actual FARs (from AOPA website)....it seems like F & G at the bottom are applicable, as well as a few others in the middle.

§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.
(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.
[Doc. No. 23634, 50 FR 29319, July 18, 1985, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2612, Jan. 26, 1996]
Dude with the spikey hair.........FNG err I mean f and g do NOT apply to DEADHEADING. Bottomline DEADHEADING IS DUTY TIME.
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:50 AM
  #30  
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From the simple fact that there is so much debate..........Have your boy fill out an ASAP form/Nasa form/Contact his rep/and ALPA National if he wants clairification or defense of his apparent violation.........

Bottom line - if he got RELEASED and LIMOed that last flight = L E G A L
if he DEADHEADED he violated the rule period.

Sounds like he needs help to me.
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