Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-23-2007, 02:23 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
JetJock16's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SkyWest Capt.
Posts: 2,963
Default 121 Pilots! I have a Reg Q to discuss

OK, I plan on researching this once I get home, but:

A buddy of mine flies for Mesa; 2 days ago this situation occurred and his chief, as well as crew support, all said this was legal. I do not; I think they pulled the wool over his eyes.

I’m posting this, not because I want an immediate answer, but so that we can discuss and learn. If there’s some sort of loop hole I would like to know about.

In short here’s what happened.

He was scheduled for a 14 hour duty day that stretched to 16:30 before his deadhead home. The deadhead was a 2 ½ hour flight, by the time his day was finished he was on duty for 19:15. His chief said this was legal because the deadhead was counted as part 91, seeing that he wasn’t part of the FLT crew, even though the flight was operated under part 121. Also that he was scheduled for 14 hours and since there wasn’t a change to his schedule, “legal to start, legal to finish.”

I understand this to be illegal, when working for an air carrier you MUST be able to look back over a 24 hour period and see at least 8 hours of rest, PERIOD!!!!!

Did my friend unknowingly break the reg or am I wrong?

Last edited by JetJock16; 03-23-2007 at 02:37 PM.
JetJock16 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 02:57 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
sflpilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 688
Default

I think deadheading does not count as a rest period. There is even a question about this kind of thing on the ATP written if I remember correctly.
sflpilot is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 02:57 PM   #3  
Line Holder
 
lowflyby's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 47
Default

My interpretation of rest requirements comes off of schedule flight time, not duty days. You could be on duty for 14 hours but only fly 6, and your rest would be predicated on the 6, not the 14. The 121 experience I have makes me come to that conclusion. THe 24 hours lookback is only for scheduled flight time, not duty time. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
lowflyby is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:07 PM   #4  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
JetJock16's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SkyWest Capt.
Posts: 2,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyby View Post
My interpretation of rest requirements comes off of schedule flight time, not duty days. You could be on duty for 14 hours but only fly 6, and your rest would be predicated on the 6, not the 14. The 121 experience I have makes me come to that conclusion. THe 24 hours lookback is only for scheduled flight time, not duty time. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
I believe the 24 hour look back is for rest & FLT time. You can be scheduled 8 hours of flying and actually fly 9, but I understand that you can not break the 8 hours of rest in any 24 hour period, which equates to the 16 hour duty day?

Last edited by JetJock16; 03-23-2007 at 03:16 PM.
JetJock16 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:08 PM   #5  
CA
 
CL65driver's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: I am the Captain now...
Posts: 1,006
Default

That doesn't sound kosher to me.... tell your friend to contact his ALPA rep. Then again, it IS mesa of all places.
CL65driver is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:38 PM   #6  
Property of Scheduling
 
higney85's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,281
Default

You are legal to start, legal to finish but only for an 8 hour flying day- delays/deice/whatever can cause 8 scheduled hours to become 9... Still legal. Most airlines have contracts that dictate duty time below the 16 hours per FAA, at PNCL its 14:30 i believe. This is one where you MUST be at/or below 14:30 for the day to end as planned. Now, if you have been on duty for 11 hours and just blocked out for a *planned* 3 hour flight- you are legal to complete it. Even if inflight delays make a 3 hour flight turn into 4 hours and you are now at 15 hours. A deadhead is NOT considered rest and is part of work- you are getting paid. So lets assume you are going strictly by the FAA for 16 hours in a duty period... Your day ends with you at an outstation after working for a 14:00 duty day you have 2 hours to be released into rest. If your deadhead leaves 30 minutes later and is a *scheduled* 2 hour flight, you are NOT legal to take the deadhead b/c your total duty will be 16:30. With that being said, if you are onboard on time for a 1:30 min flight (this would make the total duty day 16 hours) and then there are arrival delays/blah/blah BEYOND YOUR CONTROL and you get in 30 min late you duty was 16:30 and you are legal. I hope all that makes sense. Also you must have a minimum of 8 hours between rest periods no matter what. and O=- he was NOT legal for that deadhead...
higney85 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 05:45 PM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Shrek's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,611
Default

DEADHEAD is DUTY - HE BUSTED the reg.

Unfortunately Mesa can self-disclose and throw him under the bus. Have him contact his rep ASAP.
Shrek is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 05:51 PM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RedBaron007's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: E-190 Leftist
Posts: 300
Default

In case anyone is interested, here are the actual FARs (from AOPA website)....it seems like F & G at the bottom are applicable, as well as a few others in the middle.

§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.
(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.
[Doc. No. 23634, 50 FR 29319, July 18, 1985, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2612, Jan. 26, 1996]
RedBaron007 is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 07:56 PM   #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Airsupport's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJock16 View Post
OK, I plan on researching this once I get home, but:

A buddy of mine flies for Mesa; 2 days ago this situation occurred and his chief, as well as crew support, all said this was legal. I do not; I think they pulled the wool over his eyes.

I’m posting this, not because I want an immediate answer, but so that we can discuss and learn. If there’s some sort of loop hole I would like to know about.

In short here’s what happened.

He was scheduled for a 14 hour duty day that stretched to 16:30 before his deadhead home. The deadhead was a 2 ½ hour flight, by the time his day was finished he was on duty for 19:15. His chief said this was legal because the deadhead was counted as part 91, seeing that he wasn’t part of the FLT crew, even though the flight was operated under part 121. Also that he was scheduled for 14 hours and since there wasn’t a change to his schedule, “legal to start, legal to finish.”

I understand this to be illegal, when working for an air carrier you MUST be able to look back over a 24 hour period and see at least 8 hours of rest, PERIOD!!!!!

Did my friend unknowingly break the reg or am I wrong?
He was illegal the minute he went 16:01. The only way that you can go over 16 hours of duty (this includes dead heads) is that once you are IN THE AIR then unexpected delays can push the time up. If you are sitting at the gate and you are at 14:30 duty, and the flight is scheduled for 1:31, you cant even start the flight. If you taxi out and dont get to the runway till 14:31, then you have to go back to the gate because you will not be able to complete the flight before reaching 16 hours. The 16 hour rule is almost impossible to break. It would almost have to be the perfect circumstances for you to be able to do it. And dead heads are not part 91.

What your friend needs to do is hurry up and fill out whatever report they have at mesa, we have flight safety reports, and get that done asap!!
Airsupport is offline  
Old 03-23-2007, 08:15 PM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Default

Did "your friend" get released from the dead head? That's what I would've done if it meant getting home that day or spending another night in timbucktoo. I've done that before - it's perfectly legal.

The 16 hour thing is OK as long as he went over while in the air.

I wouldn't point too many fingers until you know if he was released or not.
fosters is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Be first to freeze, Comair pilots told SWAjet Regional 23 01-14-2010 08:19 AM
New WSJ article on age 60 Paddles Cargo 10 12-11-2006 12:35 PM
Pilots Run Out of Patience With Pay Cuts nw320driver Major 15 11-17-2006 08:45 AM
Pilots, Air Canada book dates to negotiate wage re-opener flystraightin Major 4 05-31-2006 07:31 AM
Any insight into fixed wing v. rotary? miker1 Flight Schools and Training 13 03-25-2006 02:12 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:00 AM.