Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2506581)

No, it says you must have had the opportunity. How do you have an 8 hour sleep opportunity in the 10 hours before going on duty if you drive over 2 hours to work? If you drive/commute over 2 hours then you didn’t get 8 hours opportunity.

Look, if you went to the hotel and the van broke down enroute and by the time you got to the hotel there wasn’t an 8 hour sleep opportunity you’d notify the company that while you had 10 hours, you didn’t get 8 hours of sleep opportunity and the start of the FDP needs to be delayed to allow for the legal rest.
Show me where in the regulation that same requirement for reporting for duty does not also apply on day 1

Originally Posted by Flymeaway (Post 2506619)

The difference is, in your scenario, you aren't getting an 8 hour sleep opportunity between your 2 FDPs. On day 1, you have gotten an 8 hour sleep opportunity between your 2 FDPs, just not within the last 10 hours, which is not required as per the text of the reg.

I've read and re-read and re-read that section of 117 trying to see it from your point of view. I will acknowledge that it would have been more clear if they had inserted the word "minimum" in front of all the instances of "10 hour rest period" or just eliminated the "10 hour" modifiers from all of the "rest period" references. However, it's obvious to me from reading it over and over is that you only need one 8 hour sleep opportunity since your previous duty period ended, and the total time from from the previous duty period to the new duty period needs to be at least 10 hours. It does not state that your sleep opportunity needs to fall within 10 hours of your report time.

I understand that you are convinced of your interpretation, but the FAA disagrees, as stated in section 3 of the LOI linked above by another poster. Additionally, your interpretation just doesn't make sense. I realize the FAA is a government agency and making sense isn't a requirement, but that 8 hour sleep opportunity is in the reg with the expectation that the crew member is actually getting approximately that much sleep at that time. They call it an opportunity to give some latitude to people who can't sleep more than 7 hours at a time, and they don't want you to have to log your sleep, etc, but the intent is that you are sleeping.

If I have a 1500 report time for a duty day of less than 3 hours (not unheard of at a regional) does it make sense for me to be required to try to sleep until 2 PM? No, I get my sleep the night before. I've had my 8 hours of sleep and got up at 7 AM, did whatever I wanted from 7 to 3, then reported for duty. If I had a contractor replacing my back patio with a jackhammer going all day, that's not a sleep opportunity. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to go to work in that situation? No, of course not.

I always recommend to other pilots to CYA. Even if you don't feel fatigued, if a reasonable person would suspect you were fatigued, and you end up in a mishap, you could be in trouble. However, I think everyone else is in agreement, you won't get in trouble just because you didn't get a sleep opportunity within 10 hours of reporting for duty, just so long as you got one since you were last released from duty.

I will give you your grey area about a jumpseater being an additional crew member. As pilots, we're having our cake and eating it too here, legally. We want to be able to commute without causing FDP problems, but in order to jumpseat, the FAA insists on calling us additional crew members. You could argue that if I'm a crew member in a part 121 operation, even if I'm not employed with that company, that that should start my FDP. That's not the way pilots want it viewed, and that's not the way the FAA is viewing it right now, so everyone's happy

Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2507000)

Show me where it says that the sleep opportunity has to be in the 10 hours immediately prior to duty. It only says that you need a minimum of 10 hours with an 8 hour sleep opportunity inside it. If you have a 30 hour time free from duty, you still are only (legally) required to have had an opportunity for 8 hours sleep opportunity inside there.

Additionally, the sleep opportunity is that the opportunity is available to you, not that you took it. You are free to leave the hotel all you want during that time if it's on your own choice.

But most importantly, and why I'm going to say it again, the sleep opportunity does not have to be within the 10 hours immediately prior to your report and it does not say that in the regulations in any way shape or form. Just because you think it would have been a good idea or something may be prudent does not make it legally binding.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2506998)

It depends on the person. For some it might be restful, for others not.

For that reason, company assigned DHD should never be rest, since you don't have a choice on that.

On their own time, pilots should be trusted to manage their own rest responsibly, whatever that means to the individual.

Otherwise, we would all need to check in to a company dorm ten hours prior to show for enforced rest (cost of said dorm would be payroll deducted of course).

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2507191)

Now explain jumpseating. As an ACM, you by definition aren’t in rest.
Then explain those who drive over 2 hours to base. Definately didn’t get opportunity for 8 in 10.

Somebody non-reving to work could argue they slept on the plane, but I’m not sure they could argue an uninterrupted 8 hour sleep opportunity

The refs are clear, and have no exceptions for day one. We know how everybody is doing the nod and wink, but when it hits the fan, the lawyers will go by what the reg says.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2507185)

You need to read 117.25
The 10 hours immediately preceding the FDP must contain an 8 hour sleep opportunity.
That doesn’t mean you actually slept, but the window must be there.

Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2507381)

Part 117.25(E)


Bolded for emphasis.

While the rest period must be immediately prior to the reserve or flight duty period and must contain a minimum of 8 hours sleep opportunity the measurement is done from release from your previous duty period. Nowhere does it say that only the previous 10 hours are considered. What is says is that the period must be AT LEAST 10 hours and have the 8 hours sleep opportunity. The 8 hours can be anywhere in the rest period and there is no limit to how long the rest period can be.

Originally Posted by teddy3412 (Post 2507450)

this is also directly from the FAA :

"The flightcrew member must now be provided with 10 hours of rest BETWEEN FDP
periods, but that rest is measured from the time that the flightcrew member is
RELEASED from duty. The rest must provide for an 8-hour sleep opportunity. "

Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2507539)

That is part of what I said?

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2507354)

You don't understand the FAA and admin law. It's all pretty fuzzy, intentionally so, because the FAA does not have a mandate to kill the goose that lays the gold eggs. Welcome to the grown up world.