Mesa is the one that only got paid actual block back in the day. No block, no pay, so you would eat any cancellations.

Some of the union regional guys like to "transfer" that cool story over to non-union SKW.

And yet people still flock to the AA wholly owneds for the flow...

:rolleyes:

According to OO’s performance statistics compared to the other operators that thrive in that area.

According to DL making a statement about OO lagging behind. Or maybe the rumor that originated from DL management indicating OO might be getting the boot back to the west.

Go where you won’t mind being stuck for 5-10 years. Not everyone makes it out and with a recession looming, you had better be happy where you end up.

Well that makes sense if you have black marks, can't get a degree in a reasonable timeframe or are just lazy. Reasonable risk given all the retirements. Given today's circumstances, I would have done it in a heartbeat if they had a base where I wanted to live (I'm lazy if my QOL is good).

The last I read the flow at the AA wo’s is 8-10 years and increasing. I wouldn’t want to take that risk given the current volatile regional industry and at the same time not be happy with a miserable QOL. There’s other options if you feel you can’t make it to mainline directly from a regional due to your background.

That being said my personal opinion will always be take the regional where you can live in base above EVERYTHING else.

Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read in APC.
Let's just ignore the flow (which, by the way, is more like 6-7 years realistically), and look at other stats.

Envoy has no training delays and you'll upgrade as soon as you hit your 1000 hours 121. So you'll start building that 121 TPIC time a year or two sooner than at many other regionals, which gives you a head start to apply elsewhere outside the flow.
The flow also guarantees movement at the top of the list, so stagnation is not an issue here.
Yeah, the CA pay sucks (FO pay is not an issue, you make around the same as elsewhere until you upgrade. No 5 year FOs here). But QOL is great if you live in base.

Coming from pilots at 2 out 3 of the aa wo’s, they’re saying it’s 8-10 years increasing.

YX and OO currently both have 2 year and under upgrades. It’s already been discussed by previous posts there is no way you’ll ever reach 1000 TPIC in a year starting off dry...

Outside of specific base selection a wo doesn’t offer anything to compete with the top tier guys. However, what they do is keep the market low, preventing other pilot groups from getting more from their company.

Let’s keep in mind also that once that recession hits, history proves the wo’s are the first to go.

PDT/PSA flow is slower, that's true. Envoy has a good program going on. PDT/PSA will get better, everyone knows that, except the forum negative nancies who think they can run an airline better than their management can.

Your history lesson does not apply to AA. American Eagle has been going on for a very long time. I would be much more concerned if I was at Endeavor or Republic, when a recession hits.

"doesn't offer anything", the flow is pretty darn valuable for a lot of people. I turned down CJOs from Republic and Endeavor to go to Envoy, because their value proposition was the best for me. No regional contract is worth commuting for. And to hold CA within a reasonable commute for me would take years and years at those places. I dodged a huge bullet with them - The people who started indoc the same time I started mine aren't even in sims yet, and I'm almost consolidated. I'm months ahead already.

YX upgrades are sub-2 years only for very uncommutable bases. How long is it to hold YX CA at ORD, or IAH? 7-8 years?

One can always pick out 2 of the smallest and most senior bases a regional has to make the upgrade time sound bad. There are definitely some commutable junior bases where you can hold CA in ~2 years.

Historical fact... AA had flow in the past and it went away real fast at one point.

Also WO's serve as capacity accumulators because the parent can downsize flying as needed. To do that at an independent regional they need to pay huge penalties to get out of contracts early, or find an excuse to fire them (the later has happened a few times).

WO's have also been shut down and liquidated for simple convenience (not AA). When you say "American Eagle" that has quite a different meaning today than when I started in the industry. Today's it's a marketing slogan. Back then it was an airline with a near-monopoly on AA feed, which could have been sold off at one point. Envoy is lucky to still be WO.

Something to consider in your decision making.

It only went away because the mainline was not hiring. During those years, there was no real movement from any other regionals either, so AA WO's were not singled out in this.
I'd say the AA WO's did pretty well during those years. Yes, they downsized, but looking at the turmoil rest of the regional industry went through, AA WO wasn't a bad place to be.

Currently, there are no 10 year CA's at any WO's who are there because they can't move on. There are plenty of them at other regionals. So yes, the flow works, even though there was a 7-8 year gap because of the lost decade.

So based on the history lessons, I would say AA WOs are definitely some of the more stable regionals to be in. And currently they have other added benefits too - fast upgrades, no training delays and so on.

I think I misunderstand what your trying to say.. if you go over block at Skywest you still get paid for it.

Endeavor is the only other regional not getting block or better, thus why it is considered industry standard.

So just to understand, if you go under block, you get paid less?

Didn't Envoy's management just ask for concessions from your pilot group? As long as they have a flow, they will never have the same QOL as YX or OO. That's the trade off you make when you chase the carrot.

If you go under marketed block you get paid historical credit. Sometimes this is more than scheduled block and sometimes it’s less. It’s a number the company comes up with by averaging all of the block times for that segment over the year. So scheduled block might be 1:45. Historical credit might be 1:35. If you fly it in 1:20 you get paid 1:35. If you fly it in 1:40 you get 1:40. If you fly it in 2:25 you get 2:25. So it’s “historical credit or better” not “block or better”.

Pilot group asked first for a handout, mgmt answered by asking for something in return. Its called negotiating.
My QOL is great here. Beats flying 15 minute hops in a 200.

Who is flying 15 min hops in a 200? Been at OO less than a year, only 2 months reserve, now a line holder. In a base with no 200s. Credit 85-95 hours a month. Have you seen the Envoy 145 flying out of DFW? Must be fun flying 15 min hops to Tyler, Waco, Texarkana, and Shepard every day.

My point exactly. Both OO and Envoy have good and not as good flying available. Look up some flying you guys do from DTW.

The amount of crap flying at Envoy is substantially greater than the crap flying at Skywest. You can bid away from the crap pretty easy at Skywest with a little seniority where as the crap you get at Envoy is in senior bases and you can’t avoid it on the 145 or 700. Pretty easy at Skywest to bid avoid the 200 if you want and only do 700/900 flying.

Also how was that “your point exactly”. You made a quip about flying 15 min legs in a 200 like you were some how immune from it at Envoy, then turn around and say there is crap flying at both. So are you immune from 15 min legs or not?

Link to this DL statement?

Well, there's DEN-COS, MSP-RST, MSP-BRD, DTW-LAN, and perhaps others which come pretty close. I'm odd though - I like those legs (and the deuce), and really like hand flying the leg provided the other seat doesn't mind.

The DFW flying is pretty fun - it's all 700 as you mention - although there are moments. Are the three sets of skid marks still on the concrete by the E gates? I saw those happen while doing a walk around and haven't seen anything before or since quite so ... interesting.

It clearly went way over your head. It was a straw man pointed at the other poster, who said WO's can "never" have same QOL as OO/YX. Both regionals have their fair share of crap flying. If you're on the 175 at Envoy, there really isn't much of it though. And 175 isn't that senior. The most senior position, DFW 175 CA, is under 1yr 10 months to hold. Junior DFW 175 CA lineholder is right at 3 years.

People have ridiculously short memory here it seems. Not even 2 years ago, YX was a dumpster fire people tried to avoid at all cost, and 6-ish months ago OO was the lowest paid regional, by some margin. If you think you can predict what happens in the next 2 years, well, good for you.

Dera please stop making things up. Many people have told you that you are rewriting history to fit your narrative. Reflect on that. Thanks.

So instead of pointing out the mistakes, you just choose to make a blanket statement like that.

Envoy has substantially more crap flying than either OO or Republic. But even then, that’s not all that goes into QOL, and you guys sacrifice a ton of it for flow.

Yea things change all the time in this industry. Want to tell me whats changed at Envoy in the past few years that has made it so great?

Yep.... still there lol.

Lowest? Come now. You're just making yourself look silly.

I have no complaints about the QOL here. I don't think I'm sacrificing any of it for flow. I'll hold a line faster than I would at YX, and I live in base. What exactly am I sacrificing, since you clearly know more about my situation than I do?

Envoy has been pretty stable for the past 4-5 years or so. That's a great thing. I'm also 99% sure they won't be closing DFW as a base. That's great for me. We're also getting 2 new planes a month, doubling the 175 fleet, that's huge. You know, actually taking delivery of them.

YX is a great company now, everyone I know there is happy (apart from the people who are waiting for a class date for 8 months). But to say you can "never" have same QOL at a WO as you can at YX/OO, is not accurate. And that was the post I originally responded to, before everyone else jumped on it and completely lost the original point.

That’s normal at YX from my experience, especially if you’re based in the northeast, because of the congestion and winter WX. And yes it adds up throughout the year. Also counts towards your over 87 hours, which are paid at a premium. To be clear over blocking 6 hours a month is pretty normal, and I’ve seen 12 hours in the winter.

Heck, it could be 12 this month. I didn't look that closely and was estimating on the low end. It sure has been a crazy month, overblocking almost every leg going West and way underblocking going east, but still getting full crefit.

So you got lucky and got a 175 slot in new hire class so your QOL is good. How would your QOL be if you didn’t get lucky with your class drop and got the 145 or CRJ. (Since, you know, your initial equipment is all luck at Envoy). I’m sure all your coworkers love hearing you talk about your QOL while they got unlucky with their class drop and are stuck on a dying fleet (CRJ 700) or got the 145, which is overstaffed into long reserve times. QOL is about consistency, not luck. At Envoy it’s all luck, it can be either good or unbelievably horrible. At OO and Republic, the QOL is consistent pretty much across the board and there are no surprises on day one of class.

Correct, I know I got lucky, and that's why I've always made it clear I'm talking from my personal point of view when I discuss QOL issues.

I'm glad you now admit it can be good. That was the point I've been trying to make.

Again - my original response was when someone said you can _NEVER_ have same QOL at Envoy as you can at YX/OO. That simply isn't true.

:rolleyes:



:rolleyes:




:rolleyes:

Oh no, it’s simply true.

I live in base at YX. A contract comparison alone proves my pay and work rules are better than Envoy. What’s airport-reserve and junior mannning?? Never heard of that. I’ve never spent a dime on luggage or uniforms. No crap flying that I’m aware of. A wide selection of affordable living bases that allows me to own a house off regional pay. Travel benefits on all three mainline carriers. And the 170/175 is extremely junior here.......because who the ******* wants to fly a CRJ?

Apples to apples, YX surpasses anything the AA WO’s offer. OO can’t even match let alone exceed what Republic offers.

But you took the carrot and fell for the flow. Hopefully you have some years behind you, because that carrot is a death trap for a new hire.

YX is great, if you live in base. I don't, so YX can't offer me the QOL Envoy can. How hard is that point to grasp? You _CAN_ have a great QOL at a WO. The post I originally responded to said you _CAN NOT_.
How hard can it be? If YX/OO/GoJet/whatever works for you, great!
Don't get me wrong - I like YX, it's a great airline and just like I've said before, everyone I know there is happy.

Hey, I haven't spent a penny on uniforms either.

And hey, when you start waving your "contract comparison", your contract has provisions for airport standby. You just haven't used it yet. Which is great. But don't say "contract comparison" if you don't know your contract.

I didn't "fall" for anything. I'm 6 months further in my career than where I would be if I accepted the class date offered at YX. I live in base. I fly a great airplane. I have great QOL. I couldn't be happier, even if there was no flow.
YX would be a great choice too, but I'm not going to move for a regional, and that's why AA WO works better for me.

Yeah but your compadres at yx are getting block or better AND 150% for everything over 87 hours. If I'm not mistaken, that's 150% for ALL hours over 87. Not just what you bid, and not based on our crappy credit scheme.

LGA for OO was nothing more than taking over ExpressJet routes temporarily and running C Series routes until that airplane came online. Once everything is set up and running those planes are going out to the west. It's not because OO is "lagging behind". You made that up.

That’s not what OO’s performance statistics reflect.

Facts are facts.