What would you do? Returning to flight
 

So, been reading and interacting here since I decided to return to flying. I have been trying to decide what is the best route for both QOL and pay; (121 or fractional). Here is the background/stats, what is your opinion?

39 years old, family (2 kids in elementary school)
Will be taking a pay cut to go back.

ATP
Former Colgan Saab FO and 135 King Air pilot
2519TT
206 TPIC (King Air 200)
1082 turbine
1577 PIC
Left pro flying in 2015 to be around for the baby stuff, eager to get back in.

Thanks for your opinions

Depends on your ultimate goals. If the big leagues, nothing will be quicker -or more cost-effective - then getting back to a regional and getting 121 TPIC. You have a good running head start to be competitive when legacy hiring ramps up in the next few years that way. Fractional flying is far more iffy as a path to the majors.

Your Colgan time might count toward longevity at Endeavor. That'd mean better pay and vacation from day one. They offer the same deal to former Pinnacle pilots, even if they aren't return to work folks.

Where do you live??

Got a degree? With Degree: 100% yes. Within 3 years you could easily go to an LCC and make really good money, maybe even Major who knows.


Without Degree: IF you love flying, go to PSA and Piedmont, decent money to begin (at your age a little less than you expect but ok, $50/hr and 18k bonus). But Flow to AA. Takes about 7 years I think.

I live near IAD

I do have my Master's right now. Majors/LCC will probably have the best schedules for pay and family life I guess?

Yes, but you're not competitive for the top tier. You might be able to get a nibble from a LCC if you were currently employed at an airline. So I think you'll need to get a job, probably regional. If you pick one with the right demographics you might be able to upgrade early since you have previous 121 time.

Then you could take any offers you might get from a lower tier major, or build more time and hold out for one of the big ones with lots of retirements coming.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean that I could make a straight shot there, I meant it more as an end goal, sorry I wasn't clear.
Which regional gives me my best shot you think? At 39 I am not really looking for 10 years between now and a major/LCC.

You might consider a direct entry captain at CommutAir. IAD and EWr bases, $45k sign on, CPP to United and really good training. I did DEC and started in Oct. Happy to share details if you’re interested.

Absolutely!

Careful... DEC training is not for the faint of heart, especially if you're not currently flying. Relatively high failure rate, and that will set you back much further than just doing a little right seat time to get back in the swing of things.

PSA has a DC base and would be easy for FO training, fly a few months then upgrade.

I thought about that option as well, but aren't the reserve times fairly long, at least at the moment?

Indeed. And several places have near-DEC bonuses that will let you grab a couple hundred hours in the right seat to get your proficiency back.

If you end up taking the DEC or quick upgrade routes anyway, then you'll be reserve almost wherever you go for a long time.

True, but there is reserve at Captain pay, and reserve at FO pay.... but I do see your point

Most places you will make more than the captains you fly with as an FO for a year or so with the bonuses!

Fractional, depending on which one could be very good. Home basing, so no commuting, and no reserve. Pay is almost definitely better and good benifits as well. Plan on pocketing your perdiem as the fractionals will cater your meals and you'll keep all your hotel, and airline miles. Which is better than space available travel benefits the airlines offer. You already have 121 time so you will check that box if you are applying for the legacies. Cons are loading bags, stocking the airplane, not knowing where you are going while on duty.

Not sure what you are doing now, but likely you will not take as much of a pay cut to go with a fractional. I know a few guys that have been hired at the legacies from the fractionals, and some with no 121 time.

I can’t think of a fractional that has better long-term benefits than a Major US airline.

That being said, there is a push to retain/recruit corporate pilots with better benefits than in the past due to the prolific hiring by the majors.

Thanks for all the input everyone, definitely keep them coming, its helping me frame out my pro/con list.

I'm just starting to scratch the surface with corporate...but i'm seeing this as well. I personally know of a flight department (that reached out) and is seriously restructuring the way they retain/compensate. They historically wanted 3000 plus, with 1000 PIC, type rating, etc for FO's. Now it's Part 135 miniumums, they pay for type rating, "company health care," not "pilot health care", 401K match vests immediately, and profit sharing, vacation day one. Company pilots have the same company benefits package as the management team. Times are a changing.

Not to be a downer but. There was a reason you quit flying in
2015. Pay is better now but work rules really haven’t. How long were you at Colgan?
If you never upgraded your best bet is FO at any regional close to home and/or easy commute

I would hope that almost any decent regional these days has much better working conditions than Colgan. But that is a fair point... Most likely commuting will be involved, lots of time away from home, etc.

Commuting wasn't the issue then, it was the going out of business part that was coming. I was flying 135 when I finally stopped; I was tied to my phone with very few hard days off and my wife was very pregnant with our second child. Going to an airline then would have had me in training during her childbirth and staying with the operator I was with was no longer viable, so I took a break.

Now, short commuting is not really an issue, though a DC area base would be nice.

I was referring to a fractional over flying for a regional, and approaching the majors from a fractional. He already has 121 time. If the music stops, I would much rather have time built in with someone like Net jets than a regional. Frac's ain't that bad, may not be Delta or United, but if you get stuck and can't move on, they ain't a bad place to be.

Netjets furloughed a lot of guys during the last downturn. I was flying corporate at the time, and it was a VERY ugly time to be involved in business aviation. Not sure why you think it’s better...
It really isn’t.

I spent the majority of the lost decade at a regional and then finally bailed to a good part 91 corporate gig before going to the big 4. I’ve seen both sides.

The goal is to be at a major, so I’m thinking about the end of the career and working backwards.

Flying 250-300 a year in corporate, maybe some more at a charter or fractional vs. ridiculously quick upgrades (compared to 2000) at current regionals is something to consider when it comes to the speed of building a competitive resume.

I was flying corporate as well during 911, and 2008 and fortunate enough to still hold a good paying job. Bad times in business aviation indeed. Yes they furloughed 500 pilots and they were out on the street for a good 5 years before all of them were offered a recall. They were way overstaffed at the time and hired too many pilots, thats not the case now. Why do I think it's better? How about pay for starters ($82-60k a year to start depending on scd) plus overtime you don't even have to try for, all major medical insurance is 100% covered by the company(saves a family of 4 about $5-6k a year), 56 cents on the dollar 401k match(not many companies I know of offer this), home basing so no more commuting, perdiem you pretty much pocket because you get crew food (up to 4 meals a day). Keep all your hotel points, airline miles, and credit card miles. 2 weeks of vacation to start which translats to about 6 weeks of vac time on the 7 and 7 schedule. How about the Atlantic Bucks and fuel programs the pilots benefit from, which usually translates to a couple grand or more in gift card's a year. Tell me which regional will offer as much to start. Let's not even compare work rules and the strength of a regional union to that of Netjets.

The negative. Woefully slow upgrade times, loading bags (not really that bad), stocking the provisions and wiping down the interior, not many schedule's to choose from. Never know where you will be from day to day while on duty.

If I was looking to get back in, while applying to the majors I think l'd rather hang out at a good fractional then a regional. Guess it all depends on the individuals needs. Just offering another suggestion to the OP, as he wouldn't take near the hit pay and benefits as he would going to a regional.

I don't see why you think a regional is better.... it's really isn't.

I've done corporate, fractional, and regional. Still trying to get to the majors... hopefully soon! Benefits to all three, but still think the regional is worst in terms of pay and qol. The OP said he has 121 time and a family, so I was thinking maybe a fractional wouldn't be such a hit to pay and qol, and I've had friends hired by the majors from a frac, some with no 121 time. 100 ways to skin a cat I guess.

Ah. Well, for starters you don’t have to wait for 80 year old grandpa to retire before you upgrade on a light jet. At most regionals, you can upgrade within a year or two, and be logging PIC time on a large aircraft with multiple crew members. Like it or not, most legacies and FDX/UPS want to see TPIC time, preferably from a 121 carrier.

Also, at a regional you aren’t out on the road doing full duty days, 7 days in a row cramming a bunch of crap in the back of a CJ3/Phenom with no APU. You will be doing that at Netjets.

Going to Netjets is probably a good move for someone that wants to break into part 91. But if their sights are set on a major airline job, it’s absolutely a bad move.

I did 135 for a while so, slinging bags doesn't faze me. 135 flying was a ton of fun, I flew for a small operator with a 2 hour call out, so fractional life really doesn't seem that bad. My top priorities are pay, and how often I get to be home with my wife and kids.

A lot of good info coming from you guys, I really appreciate it.

Like another poster said, many ways to skin a cat. Can’t remember if you have a family...if the wife ain’t happy (maybe you are the wife I don’t know LOL) ain’t nobody happy.

Long term is where the end goal is no matter what.

That being said, it’s the best time to be in a position to do a lot of things.

Best of luck!

Yes, the legacies hire primarily from military, and regional 121 operations, but there are pilots being hired from the fractionals as well. Many pilots at the fractional's aren't even looking to go 121 especially if you are a Captain at Netjets, many of whom are making well north of $200k. Had a friend recently hired with a legacy and he didn't have 1 hour of 121 time, he did however have a few thousand turbine pic, which could be hard to come by at Netjets if you don't have pic time.

With the upcoming hiring wave approaching and the demand for pilots by the Legacies, and LCCs, as they exhaust supply from the regionals, I could definitely see them hiring more fractional pilots. Different subject, the Legacies rely so heavily on their regional feed, (I believe 50% of US domestic departure's are from regional feed) how will they keep the regionals alive as it is clear they need the lift they provide from smaller markets?

Personally, I think that's why they have the flow programs in place. They can control an exodus by guaranteeing a spot, they just control how long it will be until you get that spot.

Agree to some extent, but what about the non wholly owneds. Unless they are able strike some sort of agreement with their code share. I also see the day when the WO's won't be that attractive if the flow will take longer than it would to get hired off the street.

I would strongly advise against attempting the street captain route with his experience.

It is a washout waiting to happen. If you want to go to a major, best not to start your return in that manner.

Have I seen guys upgrade at 2600 hours? Yeah

Have I seen guys go right into the left seat after a long layoff? Yeah

Have I seen street captains succeed with no time in type and no command time? Yeah

But I’ve seen many, many washouts on ioe from guys that overestimate their ability and readiness.

4 year layoff, no jet time, no company time, no command time?

Not good. We can’t teach you how to be a captain, how to fly a jet and company sop’s all on ioe.

It is a vastly different environment than the one you left. While many companies will work with you, you also need to be ready to hit the ground running as a street captain.

Good luck in whatever you do. (Source, LCA at a regional hiring street captains)

I have been in command on the 135 side, and I fully understand where you are coming from. Is your recommendation to bid FO first to get time in the jet and acclimate and then try to hold captain shortly after?

Yes.

Anywhere that is hiring street captains is also running upgrades. Get current in the right seat and used to the aircraft as an FO before bidding captain.

I've seen way too many good people get pressured by recruiters or chase dollar signs, only to just not quite be ready. The only thing worse than them washing out, is them actually squeaking past, only to get a violation or worse on their record.

I've seen lots of guys succeed as street captains, but they generally all had one or two boxes to check. Not current, no 121 PIC, no jet time, no time in type, not all of them.

The training is good, but there is a limit to what can be trained and what you have to bring to the table. Also, at any regional hiring street captains, remember- the most experienced FO's you'll be flying with have maybe 1000 hours in their role as well.

They're JUST starting to learn how to do their job, the vast majority are in that danger-zone of 3-500 hours, where they're comfortable and confident, but don't know what they don't know. And you'll be expected to mentor and groom them into the next round of captains.

For the record, I came in as an FO, with thousands of hours of jet time under 135, PIC and SIC, no time in type, no 121 time, but current. I upgraded in 4 months. Those 4 months in the right seat were invaluable to getting up to speed with the company ops, and get comfortable in the aircraft without the pressure of command as well.

My (non existent) hat is off to those that have managed to come in off the street and thrive in that role.

Great advice.

I took the same advice you’re giving from several posters on APC when the recruiters were trying to get me to sign on as a DEC. Glad I didn’t do it. I’m in sim training as an FO and can honestly say there’s no way I could have done the DEC route after being out of flying for an extended time and no time in type and no prior TPIC.