ASA update?
 

Anyone have one?

Noticed on the asacontract.com website, that the NMB, pilots, and airline's negotiation's team met this past weekend, yet no update specifically on what occurred.

Nothing. Management will not budge on ANYTHING. They live in a happy world where pilots are a dime a dozen. Except that they are beating feet for the exit.
I think they are counting on the NMB not releasing us. If we are released, they'll wait until midnight of the last night to sign something.

Why has ASA not striked? They need to walk. This crap of working without a contract for years is not good. Am I missing something here?

Yes. You are missing something called the Railway Labor Act, or RLA. Even discussing ANY kind of job action, maintenance write up campaigns, sick ins, not picking up open time, or striking, without going through the "process" can result in the union being fined and workers being terminated.
It sucks, but nothing can be done until the RLA goes away. Unfortunately that will never happen as the airlines like it just fine the way it is. Nothing like being able to treat workers like crap with no fear of job action.

Alright, thanks Blackhawk.

definitely is getting ridiculous...but what can us peons do?

Fly somewhere else?

How many of you ASA guys who replied live in the metro Atlanta area? Any on the south side? (PTC/Newnan?)

I used to live in PTC. Very nice place for a family, but not if you are single. Some people prefer farther out where you can get more land for less money; I preferred having neighbors who I saw and knew by name; being able to ride a bike with my kids without fear of being run over by an idiot Atlanta driver; good schools; being able to make my way home without driving if I had too many to drink.
I used to live closer to Atlanta Speedway before moving to PTC. I hated it. Many of the other south side towns in Atlanta are "slam click" communities. People drive their cars into their garages, close the doors, and you don't see them again until the next morning. No sidewalks for the kids. Kids are discouraged from playing outside. I asked for speed bumps in my neighborhood to cut down on the speeders and the town said they couldn't due to law suits from people who get their cars damaged. Well, if the car was damaged, they probably drove too fast.
No kidding on this next one. Schools don't have cross walks. The town does not want kids walking or riding bikes to schools as they then could be held liable. So if you live across the street from the school you have to drive you kid to school. This was the final straw that caused us to move to PTC.

The reason that ASA has not agreed to anything is that all the CNC is getting is enough to make it look like the company cares. Fact is that it is just enough to keep the NMB happy. Nothing more.

Blackhawk,
Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but I would love to hear suggestions on places to live. I am in the new hire class starting on the 4th.

All I can add is that when I talked to Dan Robertson he said that one of the main issues they are working on right now is first year FO pay. The union wants closer to 25, wouldn't that be nice. Obviously this would be one of the highest in the industry so i am guessing thats why management wont budge on it.

The bright side is that everyone is very positive about it and thats what I think will make it a great place to work for.

~Mike

Mike,
you just learned a valueable lesson about airline management. they tell you what you want to hear and lie through their teeth. I assure you that first year pay is not a priority. We made it a priority back in 98 and got pay up to 19 an hour. That was big back then, and not that popular by some of the senior guys. I don't see them doing it again. Plus, the quality (or I should say the experience level) of new F.O.s can hardly demand a larger salary. I'm a 10 year guy and believe me, senior line captains are tired of 200 to 500 hour new guys, and are not going to fight for more pay for them.
The priorities are:
1.Scope- protection from losing more aircraft to skywest
2.Pay- obvious, we want more cash and cost of living raise (the company offered 1% and no cost of living)
3. Back pay. The company offered 2 million spread out over the pilot group, but that only comes out to a small number divided over the pilot group
4. duty rigs, they are close but the company wants it only for scheduled stuff not jr. manning
5. retirement. the company moved a little on this like 6 months ago, but only for the senior guys

No where, not once have I heard someone saying "we've got to take care of the new hires" We are just not getting experience pilots for that to be a priority.

Personally I would love to see them pay new hires 25 maybe even 30 an hour. But firm min time of 1500 total and 500 multi, preferably with some 135 or 121 experience, but at a minimum, CFI or worked flying checks or something. The 200 hour crowd is not working. Training is a mess, extra sims, people being sent back to the line because they can't do a visual approach in a jet, etc. But I guess that's all that's out there, so I sure don't have the answer.

Again, lesson learned. Airline management are almost never honest, and as far as ASA being a great place to work. I have never seen it as bad as it is right now. Moral was higher in 98 when we were just weeks from a strike. Our current management is the worst we have ever had. They screwed up the Continental flying, the Northwest deal, the Frontier 70 seat contract, and failed to secure extra Delta flying, all flying they were "sure they had" , they had to fire hundreds of people from the ramp and gate for their failure to lead. There is a reason we are losing 40 pilots a month. There is a reason why 1, 2, and 3 (sometimes 5) year F.O.s are quitting and going to Skywest, Chitaqua, etc.

Don't pick ASA or some of the other crap airlines just because they will hire you with low time. You never know how long you will be at the airline (do you think I thought I'd still be here when I hired on in 97?)

Go with a quality company. you will be glad you did.

Stick

About PTC...couldn't agree more. PTC has it's issues.

I've heard that a good lot of ASA flight crews live in the Newnan area. I just bought a house in Newnan, partially because it's where my family and wife's family lives. We both graduated from local high schools in 02, plus the commute honestly to Atlanta isn't all that bad from the south side.

PTC though, ugh. . .I just train out of here. Lived there when I was a kid, but too expensive for my adult life.

Stick, great post and VERY accurate. Im a CA at Comair, and first I want to wish you guys the very best. Second we are experiencing the same issues here especially landing the aircraft and visual approaches. MANY are sent back from IOE to the sim tying up training. I wish the low timers the best and happy they are getting the oppurtunity but it's not working. Experience counts and the only way to attract exp. is more money, and QOL at the job, in general. Again good luck there an fight to end.

stickwiggler
You bring up some interesting points. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain a bit. Let me give you a little background on me. I am defiantly low time (850 and 80 with the twin time all in a C421) graduated from UND went to a little flight school far from ND so I could enjoy my flying. Loved it for about six months then they started bouncing my pay checks... It sucks to have to call mom and dad to ask for money when you have it... its just a rubber check. lol sometimes I wish flight schools had unions. So you can imagine why I am ready for a change of pace.

Do the captains have trouble with the low time guys? What would the CA want to see most from the new hires?
I think I am confused people can't fly a Visual approach? I can see why that would be a problem but why are they unable?
I take it your a CA? Is that why you are still at ASA?
Is there nothing you like about ASA?

My train of thought is this, I love flying just as much as the next guy, so if I love what I am doing I will enjoy ASA or any other regional (mesa excluded).

Now some questions on the Union matters.

Obviously I am new to all of this stuff so can you shed some light on what they are trying to do to the scope? Why would managment NOT want to keep flying and lose A/C to SKYWST?
How much of a pay raise does the pilot group want (Just curious)?
Is the back pay for the guys that worked with no contract while in negotiations? (makes sense)
Does ASA currently not have Rigs? My only exposure to them have been what was on this site ( http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...070311214.html )?


And lastly since you actually post about ASA on this site (I think everyone else just lurks lol) Do you think they will finish negotiations soon. I guess soon is a relative term but before the next 5 years lol. Honestly though, like by the end of the year?

Thanks for any info,
Mike

One more question before I go.. can someone explain JM?? I have looked on this site and asked people but I get conflicting answers.

What I understand is when you get off a trip and are going to start time off they call and ask if you want to fly another trip?

I could be WAY off.

~Mike

Mohaupt, I know you asked Stick for advice but I kinda joined in on some of his statements. So if I may clarify just on my points, and by no means answering for Stick. As far as I am concerned and I am sure MOST Captains at my airlines that I know of, we/I do not hold anything personal or profesionally against low time guys. As metioned times are tough and its just the way things are going for now. What we are seeing is the experience level really showing once they arrive to the Regional Jet. The fact of the matter is once you arrive online, we meaning Captains are finding ourselves giving flight instruction. Not to all but most. Understand that there is always a learning curve, however at this level the disparity is really great due to exp. This is expected from a low time guy or gal and no judgement is held against that pilot, it's the company creating this situation, and as Stick mentioned, at least at Comar its starting to show in the training dept. One issue which is ironic is the visual approaches as mentioned. At the larger airports, ala JFK ORD PHL etc, they usually baby us down providing vectors and altitude assignments which is no problem. The issue is visuals at smaller airports where you have to decide when to go down...

Now in most cases the Captain will provide help but there are times when workload is distracting and Captain cannot monitor EVERY moment or decide for you when to descend ...turn etc. This simple math or flying skill is expected at this level but due to exp. levels bein brought in, we are having problems with this. These are just some of the issues that are arising here. The point and again it is not directed or meant to be negative criticism towards low timers, I too was once a low timer and if I had was put into a jet with 500 hours coming from a seneca, thinking back I would have done the same if not worst! LOL! Experience does matter, however supply an demand with current airlne wages and work rules is driving the experience pilots away. I agree that airlines should ask for higher mins and the only way to do that is provide better work rules and more money for first year FO's.
I personally welcome all new hires and we do have fun, it is mandatory in my airplane to have fun..:) ! But the realization is there that I have a low time guy and extra vigilence is required. Whichever airline you go too, just do your best, be safe and have fun and always learn something every day. I still do and have been flying for 3 airlines and 17 years....Holy moly. If you come to Comair, happy to have you and maybe I'll fly with you...I buy first round! :)

I can speak for Comair Im spending my late evenings in scheduling.

JM Junior manning is when i call a pilot at home on his off day. (good luck getting him to answer)
tagging is when your thinking your done with a trip and i give you more flying.
jm is also when i tell you to fly into a day off...

Im not to up on it as i should be comair has there supervisors do it for us...

Never a kewl thing to do. I personally have never done it I work the overnight rest issues, watching for FAR violations.

Again, I think cost is relative. When we first moved to Atlanta area we lived in Hampton. Nice sized house, big back yard overlooking a pasture.
We liked the house, but hated the neighborhood. Kids could not play out front unsupervised; no side walks; we had to drive EVERYWHERE. In two years we only got to know one neighbor.
We moved to a smaller house in PTC and where VERY happy. The kids loved it. We could walk or ride our bikes to a park, several pools, grocery stores and restaurants. We actually got to know neighbors and other people in town. It depends on what you want. I grew up in a town where kids rode bikes everywhere (even in high school), you could run around without the fear of being hit by a car. Does PTC cost more? Yes, but one mantra has always been true in real estate. Location, location, location. Better a small house in a nice neighborhood than a large house in a bad neighborhood.
I think Newnan has some of this as well, although it is not as planned as PTC.
The only thing I felt was missing on the south side of ATL was the metro. It would have been nice to take the train to the airport and not have to worry about traffic as you can if you live on the north side.



Management has been poor at ASA for years. I would not say it is worse, however. Any one who says it is worse does not remember how messed up the ramp was back then. Yeah, still not very good, but there was NO ONE in charge back then. And I really mean, no one was in charge of the ramp. I am surprised we never killed a passenger with all the 120 and ATR props spinning and passengers being sent down to the ramp with no one to guide them to the right plane. I would see groups of pax wandering from plane to plane asking if it was the plane going Columbus, Albany or where ever else.
I like to compare ASA management to the management at SWA. The guy who initially replaced Herb at SWA dropped the ball. The FA contract took too long and caused employee bitterness. Herb came out of retirement to take care of the contract. Within a week he had a deal. The next quarterly results came out for SWA and, while they made a profit, they did not meet expectations. Herb came back again and fired his replacement.
This does not happen at ASA. Management screws up, yet gets to stay on. DAL tolerated it, SkyWest tolerates it. Not sure why.

Low time FOs. Most of the ones I had were okay. But the only pilots I ever had to contact a CP about where low time pilots. I literally was teaching one of them how to fly an airplane in the ATR. I mean to the point of teaching him to pull the power back, when to ask for flaps, not to just push the nose down and dive for the runway when we were high. One word about this guy- Waycross. Anyone who has been there for a while knows what I am talking about.
The other person... talk about a bad attitude. First time in over 20 years of flying that I had a mutiny in the cockpit. Yeah, I'm a little quiet and by the book. But... this person argued with me about EVERYTHING.

ftrpilot,
Thanks for the explanation. My next question then is; if its voluntary and they pay you 1.5x why are people against it? Just because they have to go in on a day off? You have the choice right? Maybe I am missing something, but like stated before, I am a n00b, I just want to fly planes and be happy :-D


p1yan,
Sounds like people not paying attention in training? *shrugs* gives me something to think about when I am finally there.

Blackhawk,
It seems that there is always someone like that in the work place. *shakes his head* Who is the current CP? Do you think that maybe something in training could fix the problem?

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me..

~Mike

I have had take the controls from FO's more times in the past 3 months than the 3 years I was a CFI teaching primary students in a cessna 152.

Its not exactly a voluntary thing. You could have plans with your kids for you three soft days an have to send you out to work....
Fortunatly it doesent happen to often at comair. We seem to have several pilots call us daily wanting to pick up extra-fly.

Alot of pilots see us as evil people, well its are job to get flights covered any way possibe within the compounds of the contract. I take no pleasure sending a guy back out when he has been flying already for 4 days. Alot of people seem to think that i do. It sucks when your on reserve, im sure im going to hate every min of it. Always remember keep up on your contract and watch your own flying times. Alot of people seem to forget its a shared responsibility. Im human and im an inperfect being, we make mistakes. Im subject to the FAA fines too.

I agree. Most schedulers I know are good people. The problem at ASA is that it is NOT an open system as it is at COMAIR. Because of this it is open to abuses- I have known pilots to use bribes to get what they want. Go up to crew scheduling during holidays and there is stuff all over that FAs and pilots give them in an attempt to get what they want. While on reserve pilots junior to me either got to fly or got time off when I wanted one or the other. Nothing we can do under the current contract. I was once given a relief line with 0 hours sitting reserve over holidays, while some one junior got a line with 85 hours and off on the holidays. Nothing I could do (although I think this has been changed). Then, even though I had a relief line that had me sit reserve all month, junior pilots (who knew someone in crew scheduling), who were actually on reserve got to fly more than I did. I always got called in for the 20 minute flight to Columbus, overnight, then fly back. Gee, thanks.
In addition, I have had scheduling not release me from flights that I could not legally do until I timed out; I have had them make me sit around until I timed out at a maintenance base for a test flight on a plane that maintenance said would not be ready for several days. I have had them JM me, make me DH to an outstation on an ATR to pick up a flight. The crew on the ATR that flew me up got out of the cockpit and sat in the back- they were called in off reserve to fly the airplane up. They could have flown it back, but my crew was JM'd to do it. Then I'm told at the outstation that I have to wait for an inbound crew. A EMB-120 comes in, and off gets another DH crew. The reserve crew that flew the ATR up is confused as this is the crew that flew the same ATR into ATL. The crew that came in on the ATR is confused because the ATR that I am preparing to fly back is the one from their trip, and THEY are supposed to fly it back. So we had three crews used for one flight. Wasted company money, and I did not make it home for dinner that night.
Another problem with JMing at ASA. It is supposed to be based on seniority, but ALPA has not had access to crew scheduling for years, so we have to take the company at their word.

There is one hugh advantage at comair we do have a cheif pilot in scheduling every day from 6am - 10pm. It helps the pilots and myself included. The cheif pilot knows whats going on and when it does have to come to JM. They will talk to the crews and say hey there not pulling your chain this is whats going on. It also made are sick call decrease drastically. So now if we can get staffed things will hopefully get better.

Stick wow man thanks, great post, I am gonna copy it into word so I can digest it again. I don't think I made it clear but I did get the job at ASA in fact I start on the 6/4 class.

Its a relief to hear that the training is great because thats what I want. Not that I am worried that I can't hack but because I like to learn (sound cheesy but I have some funny stories about the flight school where I work and the 172n PIM...)

I look forward to seeing you on the line; I am sure I will have more questions for you after I re-read this post.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

**APC... look for more great posters like stick, they help the nOOb's like me :-D

~mike

Finally an update at ASAcontract.com

Although, it appears that ASAcontract.com is ran by ASA. Anyone have the ALPA negotiating page?