What do you suggest an alternative? I agree that there just aren't check haulers anymore. But back in the day that was how we built time, and the experience we gained flying IFR, at night, in marginal equipment, in winter ice and summer thunderstorms undoubtedly made us better pilots. It taught us to know when it was time to tell the boss "No". We learned from good decisions and bad. We had some close calls and some scares and expanded the envelope in which we were comfortable operating. So when we finally had the 1500TT and 500ME that were typical minimums for the regionals in the mid 1990s, we started the job - still as newbies - but as pilots who had seen a thing or two. So the step from that Baron or Cessna 402 to a Jetstream or Beech 1900 wasn't that big of a leap.

Today the expectation is to go from piston single to high performance 100 passenger jetliner. Training in and of itself isn't built to do that. Training is supposed to be a bridge between expected performance and actual performance. Even the best training the world can't train experience. There has to be some period of time between 250 hours and (?) during which pilots take sole responsibility for the operation. Time for them to see some bad weather, some wet runways, some ice, some mechanical failures. Time for them to make some tough choices because there's nobody else to make those choices for them.

I agree that 1500 hours is a random number plucked out of thin air. So maybe that's not the right metric. But I firmly believe that there should be SOME metric, if not flight time.

That's your problem, you think of flying as only burning holes in the sky. Is CFI/MEI/CFII experience more valuable than flying a crapped out Cherokee with somebody while trading off being "safety pilot". Of course, but that is for the Regional's to decide in their hiring process. Even by your most restrictive interpretation of what a CFI does (you ever been one?) that is still 1200 hours of PIC experience and (what Regionals love to see) teaching experience.

Your other problem is that you think 1500 hours was just picked out of the air. You are wrong again. What does that number represent? Can you take a guess? Let me help you out, it represents another year or two of flying before you are flying 70 pax in the back. Do you want somebody who first touched a Cessna 6 months ago flying your kids or somebody who already has 1.5 to 2.5 years of flying experience.

I think whenever this topic comes up it almost immediately goes to the extreme assumption of well 1000 hours in a pattern doesn’t really give you valuable experience or VFR this or that etc. Well there is still some experience gained, decision making and basic airmanship, you are going to end up with more approaches and landings with 1500 vs 250 hours.

My main point is a lot of people don’t just poke holes in the sky. Most people I knew worked professional jobs, lots of cfis, surveying, 91 charter ops etc. For me as a cfi it was invaluable experience I wouldn’t have gotten at 250 hours. I didn’t even know I wasn’t ready, the idea of a RJ was intimidating but if someone offered me that job or said you can CFI for the next 18 months, even the next 6 I would’ve picked the RJ in a heartbeat and I know most of my colleagues would have also. It does cast a net, it does help weed out people, this job is easy but it’s also tough especially starting out. Just basic dedication to get 1500 hours and putting in the work to find the right job let alone what that job can do for you once you arrive at the 121 world. It’s not like 90% of the pilots are just poking holes in the skies on beautiful days to get to 1500. Most people I know don’t have the money to buy a plane and gas even a cheap one! So yes, are there people that gain little to no experience from 250 to 1500 hours, probably but I would guess not very many.

That all being said I would still make it more around 750 or 1000 hours total time with more stringent requirements such as 100-150 multi, complex time, x amount of IFR time, logged approaches etc. That would help increase the quality of experience.

Also the 1500 hour rule makes us less safe.

The regionals are now desperate to hire anyone who can walk in the door and fog a mirror because of the artificial scarcity it created. So yeah, the quality of a regional FO has decreased despite the requirements increasing (that's how government "works")

Definitely safer when desperate airlines hire 1500 hour 2 - 3 year pilots instead of 250 hour 6-month wonders.

I don’t necessarily understand this? Wouldn’t they hire the same subpar 1500 hour pilot at 250 hours? I mean I think the amount of experience gained by a majority of pilots helps them get ready for the 121 world. There will always be people who slip through the cracks whether it’s at 250, 1500 or 5000 hours.

1. I’ve been an Instructor Part 61, Chief Flight Instructor/Asst Chief Flight Instructor/Check Instructor Part 141 for a decent amount of time.
PIC? Yes, legally it is. Even when you’re on left downwind again for the 10,000th time this year.

2. Your second argument goes askew again as it’s a hiring requirement and there is training and testing and a type ratings and you’re certainly not the PIC for at least 1000 hrs SIC 121.

So what do you think makes the difference?
Your 1000 hrs CFI PIC or the 1000 hrs 121 SIC?
I think the latter.

1. Then I am confused at your "burning holes in the sky" analogy. How did you become a chief instructor if that is what you think being a CFI is? Never mind, from some of the horrible Chief instructors I have seen I can see why. At most places it is not the most qualified but who you know who gets hired.

2. I am also confused at the point you are trying to make. Why are you trying to compare hiring and upgrade requirements? I'd be vary wary of upgrading somebody who has 1000 SIC time and only 1250 TT. That CA is a disaster waiting to happen. On average the 1000SIC 2500TT makes a much better and stronger CA candidate.

I don't disagree with that. Perhaps in a theoretical FAA-MPL scenario you would have to get 1000 hours 121 time once your MPL converts to an ATP (at 1500 hours, so 2500 TT)

I am with the Chief above that the quality of the 1500 hours that some people get varies wildly. Teaching to 1500 hours at a Part 61 school in rural Ohio is not the same as teaching at a busy 141 school under the Bravo in Phoenix. And let's not even touch the fact that a lot of people are fine pilots, but terrible teachers. Making everybody be a CFI probably hurts quality of instruction overall. In my experience all CFI's get this blank soul-crushed hopeless stare in the 1000-1500 hour range. That's not good either.

The 1500 is so arbitrary. If 1500 is good, wouldn't 3000 be better? Or is 1500 twice as "safe" as 750? Or what is a Riddle kid learning in their 141 program that makes them eligible to get an R-ATP after 1000 hours that a non-university 141 graduate doesn't get? Is the FAA-Approved 141 syllabus at the non-university materially inferior to the FAA-Approved 141 syllabus at Riddle?

I am certain that you can consistently train a ~300 hour MPL pilot that can perform at or above the level of a 1500 hour CFI. Japan Airlines does it. Etihad and Emirates do it. Those airlines are not deathtraps.

As a pilot who now has run the 1500 hour rule gauntlet, there are plenty of selfish reasons to keep it in place. But I don't think it actually makes anybody safer.

1. I’d suggest you go back and read the entire thread again and what I’ve posted.

2. You’ve been insinuating that even a properly trained pilot is unsafe because they haven’t reached an arbitrary number.
They’re not the only pilot in the cockpit and out of the two of them our hero is NOT the PIC and they won’t be for at least another 1000hrs in airline operations.

I became a Chief Flight Instructor around 2500hrs dual given. What did you do?
You were still looking to share time building a year ago lol….

Well said, thank you.

A system that takes complexity into account would be superior.
Points per hour.
Private doodling - 1 point
IFR - 2 points
CFI dual given - 2 points
Banner towing - 1 point
Dropping bodies - 2 points
Anything above in a ME - add a point

135 VFR SE - 5 points
135 IFR ME piston -7 points
135 IFR ME Jet - 10 points
Added complexity points for geographic regions.
etc etc etc.

Majors require a minimum of 2500 turbo jet and 1000 PIC and 500 ME and 15,000 points.
Will never work because of ICAO but it’s an idea to mentally play around with.

Why 1500 and not 3000? As I said before 1500 was picked because it gives the person an additional 1 to 2 years flying experience before flying Part 121. Not sure where you guys get that the number was just picked randomly. Are you making that up? 3000 hours would require 3 to 4 years.

As far as your other point, if somebody is a bad teacher or at the very least can't learn to become at the bare minimum an adequate teacher then they have no business being a Part 121 Captain either. Anyway I don't see anywhere in the regs where the time building has to be as a CFI. There are plenty of other ways to time build without paying for it.

1. ohh hell no, not reading this dumpster fire. I've only read the last couple pages and that's it. What great and amazing points could you have written that weren't conveyed in the last few posts? Please share.

2. lol, I never "insinuated" that. So just because there is a Captain in the cockpit we can just throw anybody into the right seat? wow, that's rich. Is that the kind of crap I've missed in 12 pages? I don't think I've missed much then. Also, you are neglecting the 1000 hours of additional experience the CA had to do themself before flying part 121 is also beneficial.

3. Cool story. 2500 hour of "burning holes in the sky" and "10,000 downwind" patterns I'm sure, eh?

P.S. Ever want to know how you can tell when someone thinks they are losing an argument on APC? They start to look at your post history lol

It’s there for review to better understand who you’re dealing with.
I was adding to my previous post when you jumped the gun again Mr Essential.
You sure you logged all the safety pilot time correctly?

Talking about jumping the gun, maybe try to get all your thoughts out at once before posting again. I can safely say that I have zero time building hours in my logbook that deal with another pilot and I trading off being safety pilot. As a matter of fact there are zero hours before getting my ATP that were gained specifically for time building either by myself or with another person. All were CFI/CFII/MEI related. Try again Mr. Chief Pilot, maybe dig a little bit deeper into the post history. lol, what stalker psycho does that kind of stuff then admits it like digging through posts of somebody else you have a disagreement with is a normal thing to do?

Anyway enough of that.
Maybe back to tipping van drivers?

I believe the 1500 hour was picked because that was the hours required for an ATP prior to the new rule.
Nothing more nothing less…

Tiredsoul you should read my post on the last page I don’t know if you missed it or not. I agree there are ways to make it better by having more specific requirements. My point was 1500 hours doesn’t make everyone more experienced or safer entering the 121 world but if it does for some, isn’t that at least a start? I agree 1500 is arbitrary and should be revisited but it doesn’t mean that a lot of us didn’t improve vastly from the 250 hour mark I know I did which allowed me to be a safe and confident 121 captain.

....exactly, which was originally picked because it denotes a set standard of experience and time. 1 to 2 years of full time flying.

Essential is going to throw a hussy fit when I say this:
There is no substitute for experience.
No doubt you improved, we all did.
My gripe is with the time number which in itself is meaningless of you don’t require experience as the two are not equal.
Complexity makes a better pilot,
Not flying the same hour a hundred times over.
As long as there is no experience complexity requirement the 1500 is meaningless and nothing but a feel good.
TSA looking for water bottles.

1500 hours isn’t a arbitrary number, that was always required for the ATP. The difference was now that all operating crew members of a Part 121 flight must now hold a ATP and a PIC type-rating in the aircraft. Not a just a commercial ticket for those not operating in a non-PIC role.

Yes, we've kind of been having a circular argument about why an ATP is required to crew Air Transport operations.

The "1500 hour" rule actually added some exceptions to the old ATP rules (ie R-ATP).

So maybe the discussion should be how low can we go with R-ATP exceptions and under what circumstances? Unless anybody really thinks a 200 hour CPL from a 141 flight school really belongs in a passenger jet?

The problem with the whole ATP rule is, that it assumes Riddle grads are somehow more qualified with their R-ATPs than pilots with 135 IFR experience, where the opposite is true. It was just a great lobbying effort from the flight school industry.

There should be credit for 135 operation. It makes the 121 transition easy.

Thats a discussion that can be had, but folks need to stop saying that 1500 is a Arbitrary number that was recently added which it isn’t. R-ATP numbers, sure let’s discuss

I will ask this and I’ll preface it by saying this is coming from someone who’s not a pilot. What’s the idea in having the R-ATP for 1000 and 1200 hour guys? I can see it for military guys as those people get the best training under the most severe scenarios. However, what’s the difference in someone going to say Liberty University and getting a degree in aviation and only needing 1000 hours compared to someone who goes to basket weaving U and then getting top notch training from a former fighter pilot as his CFI as compared to some young kid from Riddle just trying to get his hours and get out? For this reason alone I’m looking at Liberty University to save 500 hours needed.

and that’s what is so brilliant about these R-ATP programs. Instead of getting 500 hours you get to pay extra tuition. And they get to advertise stuff like “get there first - seniority matters”

Amazing lobbying.

So if they do axe the 1500 hour rule, what happens with all the people who are already near atp mins? It wouldn't be fair a 2t0 hour guy can go to the airlines, while the 1300 hour guy worked his way to build the time.

Cause, you know, life is known for being fair.

what?!? Inconceivable!

As a previous R-ATP person who joined the regionals at 1000 hours. Best guess would be because of the structured training and in depth course work from Day 1 of school until degree certification vs the unstructured Part 61 training and lack of in-depth course work in that training environment. There is a big difference both environments. Is the course additional work worth the additional tuition expenses, no they are not.

If anyone should be crying about hours requirements it should be the small mom and pops charter companies.

They need a 1200 hour pilot to fly their pax in IFR.

By the time someone has built 1200 hours, they might as well just keep doing what they’re doing to get 300 more.

Not to mention, we were just discussing if 1500 hours is safe for someone to be an airline pilot.

In the 135 world you might be flying old, piston airplanes with limited capabilities. No extra engine to rely on. You’re MUCH more likely to have a mechanical emergency. You don’t have a dispatcher or ground crew for support. You don’t have a cabin crew or copilot for support. In the regional world you’ll fly the same approaches all the time. In 135 you’re likely going somewhere new most days. As the pilot shortage continues I don’t think many small scale 135’s will stay in business.

135 and 91 are inherently allowed to have a lower safety standard than 121.

Some of that is caveat emptor, and some of it simply that 121 safety has outgrown GA safety due to decades of media coverage and public and political pressure.

Doesn't mean it *must* have a lower standard, that's up to YOU. Any halfway smart billionaire can afford the best large cabin equipment (or just buy a transport category jet) and pay for top-tier mx and crew... I'm sure the best of those are safer than airlines since they employ top professionals, never any trainees.

Seriously, go get a job and build to 1500 hours. It’s not that much flight time. Stop being lazy. Just shut up and do it.
Go be a CFI and actually teach, you’ll be shocked by just how little you actually know. Go fly 135. Go tow banners. Just do something.

Theory was that the comprehensive flight-ops oriented book learning made them better aviators. Even though the flight training is the same as at your local mom & pop 141.

Reality was politics and money.

The big flight schools (who had money to lobby) were afraid the ATP rule would scare away their customers... and they also saw an opportunity if they could be designated as the sole gateway to a shortcut. So they lobbied for an exception and got it. They actually wanted a much bigger exception of course but they got 1000 hours.

Tell us more about your ‘experience’. Aren’t you still trying to get paid to fly something, anything? And in the meantime posing as someone with ‘experience’?

LOL there are a ton of people sitting on 500 hours who can't find a job. 1000 hours is the new 500 now.

Get their CFI, tons of CFI jobs available out there. Can go to just about every mom and pop small flight school and get on. So many people just want to instruct at the pilot mills.