Mesaba flow up/flow down with NWA
06-14-2007, 05:43 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
And depending on how its worded, beware of "flowthrough" agreements. They almost always benefit the mainline pilots more than the regional partner. Now the mainline pilots who are eligible for flowthrough (or "flowback", as it were) have a guaranteed safety net. What do you (as a regional pilot) have? A chance to go up to mainline? Whoopdy fricken do! How bout you pay me more at the regional level and shove your flowthrough up your a$$.
06-14-2007, 05:49 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
The reason that many of the flowthrough agreements did not produce flowthrough in the past was because most happened just before 9-11, and because of this, they did not have the chance to come full circle. The majors began the furlough's, and the only flowing was in the downward direction. With a solid industry, why would they not work? The answer is not historically, because we have no history of a stable industry to base it on in my opinion. So, is there another answer, or are the negative nellie's still just PO'd over 9-11!
06-14-2007, 06:00 AM
#13
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Bug Smasher Captain, CFI
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot
Sorry for the long post. Last December I posted some speculation, then followed up a month later. It now looks like much of the speculation has become fact. What happens to Compass seems to be the one remaining issue.
Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot (6 months ago)
FACTORS
NWA owns 30+ % of Mesaba (Mair Holdings)
NWA Senior Management owns a significant % of Mesaba (Mair Holdings)
NWA owns Mesaba aircraft and equipment
Mesaba is a "body factory." No concrete and bricks to purchase.
NWA has new CRJs and ERJs comming (may need court approval)
NWA short routes with average load factor can be flown by 90 seaters.
NWA pilots object to any regional flying aircraft with over 50 seats.
GOAL
Increase MAIR holdings stock value . (Management makes money.)
Reduce costs by using CRJs instead of A-320s, etc.on some routes
Avoid NWA pilot protest over commuter 90 seat issue.
Exercise greater control over owned assets.
Have a solely owned regional capability (like COMPASS was to be.)
Maintain crew staffing levels. Avoid eventual pilot shortage.
Make money.
SOLUTION
Assign 50 seat CRJs / ERJs to regional contractor (not Mesaba). (To Pinnacle then 17 back to Mesaba)
Purchase Mesaba (ready made regional airline) (Done)
Incorporate Mesaba personnel into NWA. (Done ???)
Assign 90 seat CRJs to NWA (former Mesaba personnel) (Mesaba - for now)
Establish a "flow through" for crew members. (Done as of today)
RESULTS
NWA Makes money and comes out of bankruptcy. (Done)
NWA senior managers make money on their[Mesaba] stock.
(Check both Mesaba and NWA management bonuses)
NWA pilots are happy that 50 seats and below go to regionals. (Done - with flow back they have access. )
NWA has regional capability (foil to testy regional contractors) (Done)
Former Mesaba pilots are happy to be part of NWA with flow through. (Happy with CRJs / Now have flow through)
Compass option is cancelled. (IMHO - It will happen.)
NWA avoids a potential pilot shortage at the "major" level. (Draw from Mesaba)
And they all lived happily ever after.
.
Batting average isn't bad. My best guess - Compass will fade into the sunset or disolve into NWA. The ERJs will go to Mesaba or NWA mainline. Much depends upon the finalized relationship after NWA purchases Mesaba. Will the name Mesaba be dropped ? Lots of interesting senarios possible.
Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot (6 months ago)
FACTORS
NWA owns 30+ % of Mesaba (Mair Holdings)
NWA Senior Management owns a significant % of Mesaba (Mair Holdings)
NWA owns Mesaba aircraft and equipment
Mesaba is a "body factory." No concrete and bricks to purchase.
NWA has new CRJs and ERJs comming (may need court approval)
NWA short routes with average load factor can be flown by 90 seaters.
NWA pilots object to any regional flying aircraft with over 50 seats.
GOAL
Increase MAIR holdings stock value . (Management makes money.)
Reduce costs by using CRJs instead of A-320s, etc.on some routes
Avoid NWA pilot protest over commuter 90 seat issue.
Exercise greater control over owned assets.
Have a solely owned regional capability (like COMPASS was to be.)
Maintain crew staffing levels. Avoid eventual pilot shortage.
Make money.
SOLUTION
Assign 50 seat CRJs / ERJs to regional contractor (not Mesaba). (To Pinnacle then 17 back to Mesaba)
Purchase Mesaba (ready made regional airline) (Done)
Incorporate Mesaba personnel into NWA. (Done ???)
Assign 90 seat CRJs to NWA (former Mesaba personnel) (Mesaba - for now)
Establish a "flow through" for crew members. (Done as of today)
RESULTS
NWA Makes money and comes out of bankruptcy. (Done)
NWA senior managers make money on their[Mesaba] stock.
(Check both Mesaba and NWA management bonuses)
NWA pilots are happy that 50 seats and below go to regionals. (Done - with flow back they have access. )
NWA has regional capability (foil to testy regional contractors) (Done)
Former Mesaba pilots are happy to be part of NWA with flow through. (Happy with CRJs / Now have flow through)
Compass option is cancelled. (IMHO - It will happen.)
NWA avoids a potential pilot shortage at the "major" level. (Draw from Mesaba)
And they all lived happily ever after.
.
Batting average isn't bad. My best guess - Compass will fade into the sunset or disolve into NWA. The ERJs will go to Mesaba or NWA mainline. Much depends upon the finalized relationship after NWA purchases Mesaba. Will the name Mesaba be dropped ? Lots of interesting senarios possible.
06-14-2007, 06:04 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by VTcharter
The reason that many of the flowthrough agreements did not produce flowthrough in the past was because most happened just before 9-11, and because of this, they did not have the chance to come full circle. The majors began the furlough's, and the only flowing was in the downward direction. With a solid industry, why would they not work? The answer is not historically, because we have no history of a stable industry to base it on in my opinion. So, is there another answer, or are the negative nellie's still just PO'd over 9-11!
1) You are flowing through to an airline you want to be at.
2) You are one of the first flowthroughs in the door.
Other than that, they are usually not in your best interest as a regional pilot. Now, if this were an industry that did not go from boom to bust every 10 years (historically) then flowthrough agreements would be great. But personally, I'd rather bank a little more hard cash now rather than have the carrot of MAYBE flowing up to a mainline carrier that i MIGHT want to work for if things don't change in the next 5 years. But thats just me.
06-14-2007, 06:40 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
Just answered your own question there bub. Because the industry is cyclical the only time a flowthrough agreement is in your favor (as a regional pilot) is:
1) You are flowing through to an airline you want to be at.
2) You are one of the first flowthroughs in the door.
Other than that, they are usually not in your best interest as a regional pilot. Now, if this were an industry that did not go from boom to bust every 10 years (historically) then flowthrough agreements would be great. But personally, I'd rather bank a little more hard cash now rather than have the carrot of MAYBE flowing up to a mainline carrier that i MIGHT want to work for if things don't change in the next 5 years. But thats just me.
1) You are flowing through to an airline you want to be at.
2) You are one of the first flowthroughs in the door.
Other than that, they are usually not in your best interest as a regional pilot. Now, if this were an industry that did not go from boom to bust every 10 years (historically) then flowthrough agreements would be great. But personally, I'd rather bank a little more hard cash now rather than have the carrot of MAYBE flowing up to a mainline carrier that i MIGHT want to work for if things don't change in the next 5 years. But thats just me.
If it is a ten year cycle like you are saying, then the guys that get in now will be well placed in the major when the ten years rolls around and they will have a nice cushion with the flowback if it is necessary. When the industry is good, they do work. You take the good with the bad. It is a gamble, but for the people that have their sights set on a particular carrier, I think that they are a good thing. Mainline is not going to give it up for free...nor should they, so of course there is going to be a flowback part of the agreement. Some people would rather have the money now, like you say, but many would rather have their sights set on where they want to be in a few years instead. For those people, I think that flowthroughs are a good thing.
06-14-2007, 07:25 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 222
The problem with these flow through agreements is not only the cyclical nature of this industry but also the fact that they are never straightforward, explicit or binding in any way.
So in addition to the unpredictability of the industry you have the unpredictability of how management will interpret the agreement or in fact if management will throw out the agreement altogether at any future date for any reason (e.g. to sell off the regional). The bottom line is that these agreements are good for management as it enables them to dangle the carrot in your face, yet ultimately management can do anything they want and the agreement is not worth the paper it is written on.
If you go to a specific regional with the hope to flow through to a particular major you will most likely be disappointed. Instead, get you turbine PIC, become marketable and then go where you can go based on the market conditions.
So in addition to the unpredictability of the industry you have the unpredictability of how management will interpret the agreement or in fact if management will throw out the agreement altogether at any future date for any reason (e.g. to sell off the regional). The bottom line is that these agreements are good for management as it enables them to dangle the carrot in your face, yet ultimately management can do anything they want and the agreement is not worth the paper it is written on.
If you go to a specific regional with the hope to flow through to a particular major you will most likely be disappointed. Instead, get you turbine PIC, become marketable and then go where you can go based on the market conditions.
06-14-2007, 07:40 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: E170 FO
Posts: 686
Originally Posted by sgrd0q
Instead, get you turbine PIC, become marketable and then go where you can go based on the market conditions.
06-14-2007, 07:50 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 169
Originally Posted by Airsupport
uh,, thats what pinnacle thought when they bought us and gave us lots of planes while downsizing mesaba. Oh and we had a weak "flowthrough", (ask the furloughed dc9 captains here all about that) which was really a flow back since no one went up.
Back in 2002, NWA/PCL opened up preferential hiring for furloughed NWA pilots. They had no super seniority and started at the bottom with everybody else.
Most were FO's/FE's with little time at mainline, the furloughs didn't go terribly deep.
There has never been a flowthrough/flowback provision on paper between the PCL and NWA MEC's. Ever.
The only reason any of those guys became captains is because thier seniority held the position and they bid it. Not because of a J4J type deal.
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