John Stossel on the pilot shortage.
05-26-2022, 08:20 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by jakeinthesky
How would 1500hrs in a 172 have helped her understand how to manage a slippery jet coming out of the flight levels though? The GAO reported to the Senate Committee on the Colgan crash that the main issue they discovered is a lack of transition training from single engine pistons to transport category aircraft and the more comments I'm seeing about people saying they're babysitting FOs even at 1500 the more I'm convinced that we never fixed that area of training and that's far more relevant than hours in a seat.
05-26-2022, 08:28 AM
#62
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Letter to Stossel,
John, You’ve been sold a bill of goods on the pilot shortage issue. Major Airline Pilots today still earn only 70% of their late 70’s & early 80’s purchasing power. It’s even far worse at the regional level. In the late 70’s the government deregulated airlines creating competition, yet they left labor groups regulated under the railway labor act. This law effectively hamstrings unions from any job action. It takes the better part of a decade without a contract to finally get released to strike. After deregulation, management looked to employee concessions as a means to remain profitable. For decades, pilot wages and working conditions slowly deteriorated until pilots were making poverty level wages, living in group hostels, and eating ramen noodles. As the reward decreased, the experience level of new hires decreased. Put another way, the less the reward, the lower the experience level they were forced to hire. What used to take 4,500 hours of experience before seeing a jet airliner eventually dropped to 250 hours. Historically, it took many thousands of hours before flying passenger jets. This law change (almost 12 years ago now) simply restored a fraction of the experience levels previously required. 12 years is plenty of time for new pilots to complete military or college or even self paced training. So where are they? The fact is not enough people want the job anymore currently.
Also, there is no 1500 hour rule. The law change required an Airline Transport Pilot license to fly Airline Transport Category jets. The ATP license may be obtained at several different hour requirements all based upon experience, education, and training. A college educated military trained pilot may obtain an ATP at only 750 hours. A college educated pilot with a BS in aviation requires only 1,000 hours. A college educated pilot with an AS in aviation only requires 1,250 hours. A pilot with no formal education, no military training, and only self paced flight training requires the 1500 hours. That said, even then it not simply the hours, they just obtain the new certificate (ATP) prior to flying at the airlines, so they are demonstrating by way of an oral exam and flight test a much higher level of proficiency and expertise than a basic 250 hour commercial licensed pilot.
A brand new commercial pilot flying small 4 seat Cessna aircraft is prohibited by FAA regulations from carrying passengers under charter until they have 500 hours and even then may only do so in the daytime. A commercial pilot must have 1,200 hours experience before they can carry passengers in that same small cessna at night or in bad weather. These are not new rules or laws. In comparison, the ATP rule to fly large transport category jets makes perfect sense and is a natural progression.
You also were left with a false impression that the pilot is paying for their flight time themselves. In most cases, once they have their commercial license they take jobs as flight instructors, banner towing, traffic reporting, fish spotting, pipeline patrol, fire watch, scenic flights, flying for the Civil Air Patrol, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary, and as first officers at charter companies flying business turboprops and small business jets.
I respectfully submit that you were fed a one sided viewpoint on the pilot shortage by the very people who created it. The simple fact is they made the profession so unappealing for so long that not enough people are entering the profession. What started as a pay shortage, as it still is, since the FAA pilot database shows plenty of licensed ATP holders that could be flying. They’ve chosen not to because the reward is still only 70% of the purchasing power it used to hold. They’re making better pay, and have a better quality of life where they are now. Currently, the shortage is a pay shortage, it will shortly morph into a physical shortage as even more pilots retire with nobody to replace them. Management needs to start funding pilot training, and create a cradle to grave type of guaranteed career advancement that doesn’t require going into $250,000-$400,000 in debt for education and flight training to get s $50k job.
John, You’ve been sold a bill of goods on the pilot shortage issue. Major Airline Pilots today still earn only 70% of their late 70’s & early 80’s purchasing power. It’s even far worse at the regional level. In the late 70’s the government deregulated airlines creating competition, yet they left labor groups regulated under the railway labor act. This law effectively hamstrings unions from any job action. It takes the better part of a decade without a contract to finally get released to strike. After deregulation, management looked to employee concessions as a means to remain profitable. For decades, pilot wages and working conditions slowly deteriorated until pilots were making poverty level wages, living in group hostels, and eating ramen noodles. As the reward decreased, the experience level of new hires decreased. Put another way, the less the reward, the lower the experience level they were forced to hire. What used to take 4,500 hours of experience before seeing a jet airliner eventually dropped to 250 hours. Historically, it took many thousands of hours before flying passenger jets. This law change (almost 12 years ago now) simply restored a fraction of the experience levels previously required. 12 years is plenty of time for new pilots to complete military or college or even self paced training. So where are they? The fact is not enough people want the job anymore currently.
Also, there is no 1500 hour rule. The law change required an Airline Transport Pilot license to fly Airline Transport Category jets. The ATP license may be obtained at several different hour requirements all based upon experience, education, and training. A college educated military trained pilot may obtain an ATP at only 750 hours. A college educated pilot with a BS in aviation requires only 1,000 hours. A college educated pilot with an AS in aviation only requires 1,250 hours. A pilot with no formal education, no military training, and only self paced flight training requires the 1500 hours. That said, even then it not simply the hours, they just obtain the new certificate (ATP) prior to flying at the airlines, so they are demonstrating by way of an oral exam and flight test a much higher level of proficiency and expertise than a basic 250 hour commercial licensed pilot.
A brand new commercial pilot flying small 4 seat Cessna aircraft is prohibited by FAA regulations from carrying passengers under charter until they have 500 hours and even then may only do so in the daytime. A commercial pilot must have 1,200 hours experience before they can carry passengers in that same small cessna at night or in bad weather. These are not new rules or laws. In comparison, the ATP rule to fly large transport category jets makes perfect sense and is a natural progression.
You also were left with a false impression that the pilot is paying for their flight time themselves. In most cases, once they have their commercial license they take jobs as flight instructors, banner towing, traffic reporting, fish spotting, pipeline patrol, fire watch, scenic flights, flying for the Civil Air Patrol, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary, and as first officers at charter companies flying business turboprops and small business jets.
I respectfully submit that you were fed a one sided viewpoint on the pilot shortage by the very people who created it. The simple fact is they made the profession so unappealing for so long that not enough people are entering the profession. What started as a pay shortage, as it still is, since the FAA pilot database shows plenty of licensed ATP holders that could be flying. They’ve chosen not to because the reward is still only 70% of the purchasing power it used to hold. They’re making better pay, and have a better quality of life where they are now. Currently, the shortage is a pay shortage, it will shortly morph into a physical shortage as even more pilots retire with nobody to replace them. Management needs to start funding pilot training, and create a cradle to grave type of guaranteed career advancement that doesn’t require going into $250,000-$400,000 in debt for education and flight training to get s $50k job.
05-26-2022, 09:05 AM
#63
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: B747 FO
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Letter to Stossel,
John, You’ve been sold a bill of goods on the pilot shortage issue. Major Airline Pilots today still earn only 70% of their late 70’s & early 80’s purchasing power. It’s even far worse at the regional level. In the late 70’s the government deregulated airlines creating competition, yet they left labor groups regulated under the railway labor act. This law effectively hamstrings unions from any job action. It takes the better part of a decade without a contract to finally get released to strike. After deregulation, management looked to employee concessions as a means to remain profitable. For decades, pilot wages and working conditions slowly deteriorated until pilots were making poverty level wages, living in group hostels, and eating ramen noodles. As the reward decreased, the experience level of new hires decreased. Put another way, the less the reward, the lower the experience level they were forced to hire. What used to take 4,500 hours of experience before seeing a jet airliner eventually dropped to 250 hours. Historically, it took many thousands of hours before flying passenger jets. This law change (almost 12 years ago now) simply restored a fraction of the experience levels previously required. 12 years is plenty of time for new pilots to complete military or college or even self paced training. So where are they? The fact is not enough people want the job anymore currently.
Also, there is no 1500 hour rule. The law change required an Airline Transport Pilot license to fly Airline Transport Category jets. The ATP license may be obtained at several different hour requirements all based upon experience, education, and training. A college educated military trained pilot may obtain an ATP at only 750 hours. A college educated pilot with a BS in aviation requires only 1,000 hours. A college educated pilot with an AS in aviation only requires 1,250 hours. A pilot with no formal education, no military training, and only self paced flight training requires the 1500 hours. That said, even then it not simply the hours, they just obtain the new certificate (ATP) prior to flying at the airlines, so they are demonstrating by way of an oral exam and flight test a much higher level of proficiency and expertise than a basic 250 hour commercial licensed pilot.
A brand new commercial pilot flying small 4 seat Cessna aircraft is prohibited by FAA regulations from carrying passengers under charter until they have 500 hours and even then may only do so in the daytime. A commercial pilot must have 1,200 hours experience before they can carry passengers in that same small cessna at night or in bad weather. These are not new rules or laws. In comparison, the ATP rule to fly large transport category jets makes perfect sense and is a natural progression.
You also were left with a false impression that the pilot is paying for their flight time themselves. In most cases, once they have their commercial license they take jobs as flight instructors, banner towing, traffic reporting, fish spotting, pipeline patrol, fire watch, scenic flights, flying for the Civil Air Patrol, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary, and as first officers at charter companies flying business turboprops and small business jets.
I respectfully submit that you were fed a one sided viewpoint on the pilot shortage by the very people who created it. The simple fact is they made the profession so unappealing for so long that not enough people are entering the profession. What started as a pay shortage, as it still is, since the FAA pilot database shows plenty of licensed ATP holders that could be flying. They’ve chosen not to because the reward is still only 70% of the purchasing power it used to hold. They’re making better pay, and have a better quality of life where they are now. Currently, the shortage is a pay shortage, it will shortly morph into a physical shortage as even more pilots retire with nobody to replace them. Management needs to start funding pilot training, and create a cradle to grave type of guaranteed career advancement that doesn’t require going into $250,000-$400,000 in debt for education and flight training to get s $50k job.
John, You’ve been sold a bill of goods on the pilot shortage issue. Major Airline Pilots today still earn only 70% of their late 70’s & early 80’s purchasing power. It’s even far worse at the regional level. In the late 70’s the government deregulated airlines creating competition, yet they left labor groups regulated under the railway labor act. This law effectively hamstrings unions from any job action. It takes the better part of a decade without a contract to finally get released to strike. After deregulation, management looked to employee concessions as a means to remain profitable. For decades, pilot wages and working conditions slowly deteriorated until pilots were making poverty level wages, living in group hostels, and eating ramen noodles. As the reward decreased, the experience level of new hires decreased. Put another way, the less the reward, the lower the experience level they were forced to hire. What used to take 4,500 hours of experience before seeing a jet airliner eventually dropped to 250 hours. Historically, it took many thousands of hours before flying passenger jets. This law change (almost 12 years ago now) simply restored a fraction of the experience levels previously required. 12 years is plenty of time for new pilots to complete military or college or even self paced training. So where are they? The fact is not enough people want the job anymore currently.
Also, there is no 1500 hour rule. The law change required an Airline Transport Pilot license to fly Airline Transport Category jets. The ATP license may be obtained at several different hour requirements all based upon experience, education, and training. A college educated military trained pilot may obtain an ATP at only 750 hours. A college educated pilot with a BS in aviation requires only 1,000 hours. A college educated pilot with an AS in aviation only requires 1,250 hours. A pilot with no formal education, no military training, and only self paced flight training requires the 1500 hours. That said, even then it not simply the hours, they just obtain the new certificate (ATP) prior to flying at the airlines, so they are demonstrating by way of an oral exam and flight test a much higher level of proficiency and expertise than a basic 250 hour commercial licensed pilot.
A brand new commercial pilot flying small 4 seat Cessna aircraft is prohibited by FAA regulations from carrying passengers under charter until they have 500 hours and even then may only do so in the daytime. A commercial pilot must have 1,200 hours experience before they can carry passengers in that same small cessna at night or in bad weather. These are not new rules or laws. In comparison, the ATP rule to fly large transport category jets makes perfect sense and is a natural progression.
You also were left with a false impression that the pilot is paying for their flight time themselves. In most cases, once they have their commercial license they take jobs as flight instructors, banner towing, traffic reporting, fish spotting, pipeline patrol, fire watch, scenic flights, flying for the Civil Air Patrol, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary, and as first officers at charter companies flying business turboprops and small business jets.
I respectfully submit that you were fed a one sided viewpoint on the pilot shortage by the very people who created it. The simple fact is they made the profession so unappealing for so long that not enough people are entering the profession. What started as a pay shortage, as it still is, since the FAA pilot database shows plenty of licensed ATP holders that could be flying. They’ve chosen not to because the reward is still only 70% of the purchasing power it used to hold. They’re making better pay, and have a better quality of life where they are now. Currently, the shortage is a pay shortage, it will shortly morph into a physical shortage as even more pilots retire with nobody to replace them. Management needs to start funding pilot training, and create a cradle to grave type of guaranteed career advancement that doesn’t require going into $250,000-$400,000 in debt for education and flight training to get s $50k job.
05-26-2022, 10:31 AM
#64
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Cujo665
probably because almost nobody does 1500 in a C172. They teach, the go fly right seat 135 or 91k in turboprop or light jets. All the places that can hire low time pilots are great experience before stepping into 76 seat transport category jets.
05-26-2022, 11:01 AM
#65
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Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,425
Originally Posted by highfarfast
You don’t need the 1500 hours until the end of the AQP course and the sim time in the AQP course counts. So they can hire guys with ‘just under’ 1500. Regionals have been doing this for several years. Sounds like Frontier is now doing it too according to jpso.
05-26-2022, 03:31 PM
#66
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Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 212
One thing people tend to forget as it relates to time building for the 1500 hour rule, there just aren't a lot of jobs outside of instructing. As a % of positions I would guess that 80% are CFI jobs.
Banner towing, traffic watching, surveying is another 10%. Part 91/135 gigs that are willing to hire a low time commercial pilot are pretty few and far between.
If you have the money to operate a private jet (owned or chartered) you don't want a 20 year old UND grad meeting you at the FBO. At the charter company I used to work at we jokingly called it "command presence" but more practically it was the "requirement" that any new hires don't routinely get carded when they order a beer and bonus points for at least a slight hint of gray hair.
Banner towing, traffic watching, surveying is another 10%. Part 91/135 gigs that are willing to hire a low time commercial pilot are pretty few and far between.
If you have the money to operate a private jet (owned or chartered) you don't want a 20 year old UND grad meeting you at the FBO. At the charter company I used to work at we jokingly called it "command presence" but more practically it was the "requirement" that any new hires don't routinely get carded when they order a beer and bonus points for at least a slight hint of gray hair.
05-27-2022, 05:19 PM
#67
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Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: CFI
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by FXLAX
The ATP rule (not necessarily 1500 hours) allows enough time for the opportunity to find yourself in situations you learn from. It allows enough time to find yourself in situations that require aeronautical decision making, being a pilot in command where you are the only one that is going to get yourself on the ground safely. Otherwise, we would have pilots who go from being supervised throughout their entire training up to 190 hours and then into the right seat of an RJ, being supervised by captains. Then finally being the PIC for the very first time when they upgrade.
It’s not a political taking point. It’s real life experience you get from forcing you to go through the time building. That’s why it enhances safety. Nothing is ever 100% but like someone, it’s a good start.
If hours don’t make a difference, then you should ague to get rid of ALL hour requirements found in the FARs, not just the “1500 hour” rule.
It’s not a political taking point. It’s real life experience you get from forcing you to go through the time building. That’s why it enhances safety. Nothing is ever 100% but like someone, it’s a good start.
If hours don’t make a difference, then you should ague to get rid of ALL hour requirements found in the FARs, not just the “1500 hour” rule.
I think you make a great point in saying that 1500 forces you to be pic and get yourself out of hairy situations. My PIC time has been invaluable in teaching me how to make instill good ADM skills.
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05-28-2022, 07:59 AM
#68
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Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by jakeinthesky
Not sure where you're getting this data from but from my personal experience working directly with regional new hires it absolutely wasn't the case. Maybe in the past, but in the recent years the vast majority of new hires I've seen are coming straight from instruction. The folks who did 135 in multi turbine aircraft usually had an easier time transitioning but they were the minority of people I encountered.
the ATP rule requires a higher level of training, an oral exam and more precision flying than a basic commercial for a flight test. The education, experience and training requirements recognize the varying value of different overall experiences. Without military or formal education they want more PIC and total time. It makes total sense and the post ATP law change accident death rates support it.
05-29-2022, 10:48 AM
#70
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Originally Posted by Wingedbeast
The 1500 hour rule was a knee jerk reaction, It solved nothing and stops nothing.
Make Pria a mandatory life long database. Special Tracking for the FAA if you've failed a checkride.
The atlas air fo had plenty of hours as well. Getting more time isn't gonna be a ****ty pilot good.
Make Pria a mandatory life long database. Special Tracking for the FAA if you've failed a checkride.
The atlas air fo had plenty of hours as well. Getting more time isn't gonna be a ****ty pilot good.
The ATP rule that resulted makes perfect sense and is a logical progression from, 500 TT for VFR 135, and 1200TT for night/IMC under 135. That covers everything from C152 to 30 passenger jets.
to fly airline transport category jets, requiring an airline transport pilot certificate just makes logical sense. Allowing lower TT for the R-ATP recognizes that not all training and education is the same and that some experience is better than others.
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