College and the new enviornment
 

Hi guys,
I am a captain at a major airline now and haven’t had to try to navigate this new environment. My son is still in high school, earning his private.
Here’s the question:
I have two schools of thought going forward. 1. As soon as he graduates high school, go blow through ATP for 5 months (since he has a private already) and start working while doing one or two classes per semester online to work on his degree. 2. Go to Mercer county college aviation program for two years. Flight instruct after two years, work on the final classes he needs online to finish his 4 year degree.
what is everyone doing out there now? I don’t want him to miss this wave but I don’t want the degree to hold him up, though frankly, I’m not sure anyones going to need it. I know he needs hours.
Whats the opinion on order of operations right now?
thanks

I am 37. Career switching. Firefighter to Airline Pilot. Currently at a regional. My dad pushed me really hard to go to college at 18. Biggest mistake he made. I failed out.

Went to EMT and paramedic school. Got hired with fire dept after a few years. Was making 100k before I was 30 with no debt
Now I have 2 bachelor's degrees paid for by my employer. I took a student loan to pay for flight training, and now 10k is getting knocked off that.

With the current hiring environment I would say crank out the ATP or RATP (age factor 21 vs 23) as fast as possible. Do online school while getting flight hours as fast possible. The majors are not placing as much emphasis on the the degree. It's more about showing that you could start and finish it.

Personal opinion-. Baby boomer generation sold Gen X and millennials on this "you NEED“ a college degree bull****. Government went along with it. Universities made a ton of profit off it and its all a bunch of garbage. Now we don't have enough skilled trades people (including pilots).

He is just getting to 18. Depends if he wants to get an early start the at airlines at 21 vs 23. My kids are still young but I think the extra two years at the beginning of their career afforded by the R-ATP will be the best route if they decide they want to be pilots.

I found it extremely easy to get the bachelor's degree from liberty online while I was working full time with young kids and it got me the R-ATP in my early 30s. College is almost more about experience now if you go at ages 18-22. I don't think they really learn much.....girls...parties..etc.. It's fun, but getting a good career early will reep much better rewards. Ask any young man what he wants by age 30- it will be some version of good career, fast car, and hot wife. Airline Pilot at young age makes all that happen

I tend to agree with VegasChris. A degree may not be fully necessary right now today. But if you’re a seasoned pilot at a major, you understand how that can change overnight. I would, at the LEAST, have an associates degree in hand in a field not related to aviation. Your son won’t be able to start at a regional until he’s 21, so it leaves roughly 2 years between graduating highschool and being able to start indoc to finish, or get as close to some degree, as he can.

ATP looks like your best bet to me, if you want him to knock it all out pretty quick. Do online classes. He can even still be in school finishing up when he’s at a regional. I can’t believe I’m agreeing with someone to go to ATP. How times have changed.

I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the poverty wages that people used to earn in this career field.

This career field paid **** wages and combine that with the high cost of entry and it's a recipe for a shortage.

Other careers are having shortages too. Mechanics plumbers and HVAC techs can all make good money (100k) with minimal schooling.

​​​​​​College is all fascade, it's a scam, do any pilots use their degree knowledge to fly a plane? But we don't teach classes like personal finance, or anything actually practical for life now.

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What a crazy world this has turned into. I was at Continental Express in 1998 and it took forever to get to a major for me. Mainly because I dragged my feet with a stupid degree, but I eventually got it and got out. I can’t believe I am even considering him going about it in a similar way but it’s so different now. I had a first officer last month who got his private pilots license 5 years before sitting in the right seat next to me! (Very Sharp pilot BTW).
I’ll look into liberty online.

I'm a big college advocate for professional pilots, for several reasons, but in this exact moment it would probably make sense to do the crash course, get to a regional and start building time/seniority so as to catch some of the wave. Unprecedented opportunity. I would encourage him to keep chipping away at the degree, just in case.

Or compromise and do the associates degree route for two years, hustle for flight time in the process and get on with a regional at age 21.

Keep in mind that the R-ATP requires age 21, so he can't start a regional before that. If he really hustled he might be able to get a 91/135 turbine job before age 21, and then go directly to a major of some sort when he's 23 with a few thousand hours. Lots of potential paths right now.

Imo if he’s just starting in the fall he’s already missed the boat. Depending on the exact situation even if he finishes atp by late spring he’s still gonna need 1200 hrs to build which can take a year or in many cases 2-3 depending on location and where he instructs. In 2 to 3 years time the hiring craze caused by Covid will have stabilized and what’s really left will be the looming mass retirement of boomers. But we don’t know the full extent of that yet. Just my opinion but the wave will crash in a couple months to a year and slow down again to a normal rate.


Also to note. Lots of people suggesting he should go ratp at 21. You need either college credit or a degree in aviation and must do your flight training in association with a 141 school with those college classes. Can’t just say you’re ratp with any random degree and you can’t do part 61 training which is what ATP does. 141 in pursuits of the ratp also takes quite a bit longer than the ATP curriculum. I know for a fact com is a full 3 semesters or a year long course by itself. Although you can finish the flight training in less time in general 141 from a college would probably take more than a year likely 2 to finish everything.

If I remember correctly (it's been a while), if you are under 23 with all the ATP requirements, you can get a R-ATP without a degree. And then the restriction gets removed when you turn 23.

Yes, go with option #1. Get the certs, fly for a living, do college work online at nights until a degree is earned. College will be potentially necessary if he ever wants to change careers, or is forced to change careers. His degree should not be in aviation, but something broadly useful, like a finance degree if possible. Diversification is good. And a real degree can help broaden his horizons too.

Yes. You can always get an R-ATP at age 21 with 1500 hours. Does not matter where you did your training. You can also combine the age 21 allowance with the 1000/1200 hour allowances. In theory with the mil allowance too, but you'd probably be over 23 anyway.

Yes you guys were correct. I didn’t realize the 21 age requirement applied to non 141 applicants.I wasn’t thinking about the age factor more so the time requirements.

Point still stands if they are 18 and have 3 years till they hit 21 for a restricted that in itself is probably too late to hop on the boat of this hiring wave. Not to mention it’ll be another 2 years to get unrestricted that they be stuck at a regional for before they can move up. It’s good experience. But if the advice and decisions being made are solely to jump on the hiring wave and get to a major asap there’s no best choice. Each path has different opportunities and the decisions and advice should absolutely not be weighted using the current trend of the industry because it can always change over night and it almost certainly won’t be the same in 3-5 years as it is today. Whether good or bad

THIS! That’s exactly what I’m thinking.

this hiring spree was not caused by Covid. My airline has been scared of this and what’s coming for at least 5 years. Soon, competitive minimums will be restricted ATP mins. We aren’t there yet but it is coming. it has been mentioned to me many times by management.

Honestly I think college is a pretty big waste of money in this day and age. If you can pay for it outright and get out of it a good career with no debt then it’s worth it. Otherwise I’d just skip it.

Unless you’re aspiring to be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, electrical engineer etc I’d skip it.

This is all just my opinion based on my life experiences. Ymmv.

The whole "no degree needed" now at the airlines is good, we don't need a degree to fly a plane. It was a way to weed out the stack of resumes.

If he wants a degree then encourage a degree in a field that is a fallback if a medical lost or a furlough happens. Think a CPA, IT, or the trades and start a business later after learning the trade. Something that allows work on those off days from flying. So many choices when it comes to college via online and it doesn't require that paper from E-RAU to open a door now.

You mention MCC and I assume that's the MCC in Trenton, NJ. Another way is go to college while in the Jersey Guard, air or ground, and let them pay for college. Do the weekend a month and two-weeks a year; which puts ya in good standing. This status allows one to attend any state school for free. ANY state school. The army side needs pilots. Go to AIT and work in flight ops, be around pilots and then apply to attend warrant officer flight training.

The AF side, go to tech school in aviation life support, work around pilots while attending college, apply for OTS and then apply for a flight slot.

Either way, units like to hire a person they know and have seen work. Having a guard slot, air or ground, is an excellent backup plan as an airline pilot.

I know people who used this program in Jersey and have layers of degrees for no cost in dollars, but time. one has a law degree, another a PhD, many under grads, another DPT...all at a no cost to the individual.

All the best and he's got a cool future.

This is what my oldest did, started his own business. Lots of guys with skills, not as many who can navigate business startup, vision, b-plan, loans, gov red tape, marketing, etc. His degree was pretty much a necessity for that, or at least getting it up and running by age 30. Business degree is obviously useful, but also communication or marketing. I'd minor in business if going that route.

A number of states offer good deals for vets, often free tuition in-state. That's in addition to any GI Bill bennies.

Be aware that routine guard/reserve service may not qualify you as a "veteran" for these purposes, per the fed you need IIRC 6 months federal AD (training probably doesn't count). Combat zone service may also count, and may also give you additional bennies (it does in CA, free tuition for your kids). States may have different rules. Guard/reserve who retire get Vet status, but obviously that doesn't help a young person for college.

The only thing I would add--consider looking at the airline cadet programs. JetBlue, American, Southwest all have cadet programs that provide good training (arguably better than ATP) and have a pathway to a job at a major.

In the current hiring environment it doesn't matter, but if COVID 2023 comes around, you would expect that they would try to honor commitments to their cadets before they hire off the street.

Make sure you understand the timeline cost of any of those you consider... you don't want to be locked into a slower path to a seniority number at a legacy (somebody that young should be shooting for a legacy in this climate IMO).

The "guaranteed" pathways normally come with some obligated service at the regional feeder, in exchange for that you can be lazy and coast until your number comes up. If you hustle, you can probably get a legacy number sooner on your own.

I did a 4 year prior to going to flight school and knocking out the ratings.

Im glad I did the 4 year not just for the educational aspect, but because I had a lot of growing to do when I was 18-22. Im glad I was able to do it in the academic setting. The degree itself has nothing much to do with aviation, but I am glad I went and did it as I felt it made me into a.. more rounded individual.