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What are your opinions on the 1500hr rule?
I came across a recent thread on the flying subreddit where the OP is talking about how he landed his first gig flying in the right seat of a 737 for a European airline. One of the comments (that's heavily downvoted) questions the safety of an airline that hires a first officer with low time. However, the replies to that comment are mostly in disagreement with the 1500hr and how it really doesn't do anything for airline safety, mostly citing reasons of bureaucracy for not being able to change the 1500hr rule or congress trying to maintain the illusion of fixing an issue. What's everyone's thoughts on this?
Reddit thread in question: https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comm...st_flying_job/ |
Rule is fine
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Here we go again. Since the implementation of the 1500 hour rule, pilots have been soooo much better off from a pure money standpoint. Do you know how much pilots at regionals, as well as in other stepping stone sectors of the industry were making, prior to the 1500 hour rule?? I kid you not, but some regionals were paying first year FO’s less than McDonald’s level wages. It was truly awful. I really do not know how people used to make this career work prior to the 1500 hour rule and the resulting wage increases in the years following. This career used to really, really suck for newbie’s entering into it before the rule came into existence. Almost immediately after it went into effect, regionals started increasing pay rates and offering bonuses. It wasn’t much at first, but it was a start in the right direction and it eventually lead to the kinds of pay rates and bonuses we’re seeing now. Although, in reality the current rates exist because the majors are hiring so many pilots from the regionals that the regionals are starting to shrink, with some potentially collapsing in the future.
There are some big differences between aviation in the U.S. and in other countries. In the U.S. airlines typically value experience more, but to a certain degree. You don’t have to have 9,000 hours to get hired at major anymore due to supply and demand now, but 15 years ago you pretty much needed 9,000 hours, 4 type ratings, 6 shuttle landings, and letters of recommendation to even get looked at. In many other countries, yea, sure you can get hired on at bare minimum hours. But they also have more accidents more in other countries and the training isn’t as high quality as it is here. Many foreign airlines will be mentoring that new first officer for a long time due to their lack of experience. So the captain is pretty much acting as an instructor for much longer in order to teach them everything. In the U.S. they expect you to come in with a good baseline of experience under your belt, and to pretty much know your shxx. Most pilots in the U.S. in the civilian pipeline come from instructor backgrounds. This helps to build up good CRM and learning how to work with others in the cockpit, and it also really helps said instructor to teach themselves the material that they will be getting once they enter an airline training program. Many other pilots might choose to move on from instructing jobs and get into passenger charters, freight, medevac, etc flying more advanced equipment with turbine engines and getting used to flying a faster airplane. At the same time, they also get a very good amount of experience learning how to talk to ATC and deal with deviations around weather/thunderstorms, handle icing conditions, etc. When they finally choose to move onto an airline job, they have typically already accrued a good wealth of knowledge and experience as a baseline. They can fly an ILS down to minimums, in the weather, competently and confidently, and some have dealt with abnormalities and emergencies. Probably the most important thing here is the decision making experience that they get. Flying an airliner involves a ton of decisions on each and every flight. Without this baseline of experience coming into an airline training footprint, the learning curve is incredibly steep with just a wet commercial ticket. Coming into an airline training program here in the U.S., really the only thing that’s important is for the student to focus on learning on how to fly the airplane they way they want you to fly it. The instructors will test you in the sims and will throw a few curveballs your way but it’s much easier dealing with those curveballs having prior experience as a pilot with many things mentioned above. This subject comes up every few months on here and it usually comes from young ones that might have a sense of entitlement and don’t want to put in the work to accomplish something. Instead they look for the easy route. In my opinion there really is no easy route in aviation. It’s all difficult, but well worth it in the end. But there’s always people that want it easy. As a prior instructor, I’ve had many students who quit because the training was overwhelming. They also were the ones who insisted that the 1500 rule should be dropped. It’s probably a good thing that they quit. Nothing personal against them but they were better off staying where they were vs flying airplanes. For some people in this industry they don’t have to go all the way to 1500 hours. They could get a restricted ATP at 1250 hours for a 2 year aviation degree, 1,000 hours with a 4 year aviation degree, or 750 if they were coming out of the military. So there’s that, but still many will complain about that. The rule has done a lot of good and I would say, yes, it has improved safety. There were more fatal accidents prior to the rule. I would say with more experience of people coming into the training pipeline, that that can only be beneficial. I don’t know what European airlines pay their pilots but the rule has only helped pilot pay in the U.S. |
Originally Posted by Cleared4appch
(Post 3528309)
Here we go again. Since the implementation of the 1500 hour rule, pilots have been soooo much better off from a pure money standpoint. Do you know how much pilots at regionals, as well as in other stepping stone sectors of the industry were making, prior to the 1500 hour rule?? I kid you not, but some regionals were paying first year FO’s less than McDonald’s level wages. It was truly awful. I really do not know how people used to make this career work prior to the 1500 hour rule and the resulting wage increases in the years following. This career used to really, really suck for newbie’s entering into it before the rule came into existence. Almost immediately after it went into effect, regionals started increasing pay rates and offering bonuses. It wasn’t much at first, but it was a start in the right direction and it eventually lead to the kinds of pay rates and bonuses we’re seeing now. Although, in reality the current rates exist because the majors are hiring so many pilots from the regionals that the regionals are starting to shrink, with some potentially collapsing in the future.
There are some big differences between aviation in the U.S. and in other countries. In the U.S. airlines typically value experience more, but to a certain degree. You don’t have to have 9,000 hours to get hired at major anymore due to supply and demand now, but 15 years ago you pretty much needed 9,000 hours, 4 type ratings, 6 shuttle landings, and letters of recommendation to even get looked at. In many other countries, yea, sure you can get hired on at bare minimum hours. But they also have more accidents more in other countries and the training isn’t as high quality as it is here. Many foreign airlines will be mentoring that new first officer for a long time due to their lack of experience. So the captain is pretty much acting as an instructor for much longer in order to teach them everything. In the U.S. they expect you to come in with a good baseline of experience under your belt, and to pretty much know your shxx. Most pilots in the U.S. in the civilian pipeline come from instructor backgrounds. This helps to build up good CRM and learning how to work with others in the cockpit, and it also really helps said instructor to teach themselves the material that they will be getting once they enter an airline training program. Many other pilots might choose to move on from instructing jobs and get into passenger charters, freight, medevac, etc flying more advanced equipment with turbine engines and getting used to flying a faster airplane. At the same time, they also get a very good amount of experience learning how to talk to ATC and deal with deviations around weather/thunderstorms, handle icing conditions, etc. When they finally choose to move onto an airline job, they have typically already accrued a good wealth of knowledge and experience as a baseline. They can fly an ILS down to minimums, in the weather, competently and confidently, and some have dealt with abnormalities and emergencies. Probably the most important thing here is the decision making experience that they get. Flying an airliner involves a ton of decisions on each and every flight. Without this baseline of experience coming into an airline training footprint, the learning curve is incredibly steep with just a wet commercial ticket. Coming into an airline training program here in the U.S., really the only thing that’s important is for the student to focus on learning on how to fly the airplane they way they want you to fly it. The instructors will test you in the sims and will throw a few curveballs your way but it’s much easier dealing with those curveballs having prior experience as a pilot with many things mentioned above. This subject comes up every few months on here and it usually comes from young ones that might have a sense of entitlement and don’t want to put in the work to accomplish something. Instead they look for the easy route. In my opinion there really is no easy route in aviation. It’s all difficult, but well worth it in the end. But there’s always people that want it easy. As a prior instructor, I’ve had many students who quit because the training was overwhelming. They also were the ones who insisted that the 1500 rule should be dropped. It’s probably a good thing that they quit. Nothing personal against them but they were better off staying where they were vs flying airplanes. For some people in this industry they don’t have to go all the way to 1500 hours. They could get a restricted ATP at 1250 hours for a 2 year aviation degree, 1,000 hours with a 4 year aviation degree, or 750 if they were coming out of the military. So there’s that, but still many will complain about that. The rule has done a lot of good and I would say, yes, it has improved safety. There were more fatal accidents prior to the rule. I would say with more experience of people coming into the training pipeline, that that can only be beneficial. I don’t know what European airlines pay their pilots but the rule has only helped pilot pay in the U.S. I think the 1,500 hour could be improved upon by mandating more varied experience. But I'm not sure how you could do that. I think probably the 1500 hour rule has done more to improve the profession than anything in the last 30 years. Throwback to my first part 135 job where I was making $12,000 a year after taxes. Which was about half of what I was making throwing boxes at FedEx in college. |
1500 hour? Most of our new hires have 1000 hours!
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1500 hours is a very blunt instrument. But it's better than 200 hours.
Also what most inexperienced people don't get is that in general aviation you learn to be PIC and you learn about complacency. 121 has so many layers for safety rails that it's possible to acquire several thousand hours in 121 and upgrade, without having learned some of what you'd learn in 1000-1500 hours of GA. |
Originally Posted by calamity0187
(Post 3528022)
I came across a recent thread on the flying subreddit where the OP is talking about how he landed his first gig flying in the right seat of a 737 for a European airline. One of the comments (that's heavily downvoted) questions the safety of an airline that hires a first officer with low time. However, the replies to that comment are mostly in disagreement with the 1500hr and how it really doesn't do anything for airline safety, mostly citing reasons of bureaucracy for not being able to change the 1500hr rule or congress trying to maintain the illusion of fixing an issue. What's everyone's thoughts on this?
Reddit thread in question: https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comm...st_flying_job/ |
The best new hires tended to be young guys who came from part 135 charter, flying 6-10 passengers as PIC, sometimes with an SIC for insurance requirements. That teaches/requires/weeds out those who don't adapt the skills needed to succeed as a 121 FO/CA.
Wanna really throw a bone to the 135 industry/send a blue collar middle finger to the universities who rigged the current carveout? Add a requirement for 500 hours Part 135 PIC hours to get the ATP license. Mandate the stepping stone. To add weight to that crazy idea... it's kinda crazy that you can get a commercial license, then do part 91 flight instructing, which doesn't really move your boundaries or area of operations from your flight training days, and have those hours count towards airline transport. Like, the experience requirements for ATP should have something to do with airline operations, ie small passenger or cargo operations. Surely the dying 135 industry could thrive once again if every CFI had to come through their establishment and get some experience before qualifying for large airline ops. The way it used to be. |
OMG... it's been 24 hours since this thread showed up. Where's Sonic? Anyone check his house to see if he's okay?
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The 1500 hour rule benefits everyone, including the airlines, their shareholders, and the insurance underwriters. Those disparaging it are looking to make a quick buck or cut corners at the ultimate expense - human lives. The US has the safest aviation system in the world for a reason.
No one wants a back surgeon straight out of medical school. Once they completed 5+ years of successful residency then they may be ready handle the work themselves. That level of competency should be expected of airline pilots as well. There's more than one's back at stake in this profession. |
Without the 1,500 hour rule you’d be making $17 an hour once you got here. Think about that while you are making $100 an hour during COKS.
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Never heard of it. Is this new?
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
(Post 3528765)
Never heard of it. Is this new?
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Originally Posted by highfarfast
(Post 3528819)
No, it's not new. There's been a requirement for having 1500 hours to hold an ATP certificate for decades longer than before you were born.
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Originally Posted by Round Luggage
(Post 3528823)
You missed it. You really missed it.
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The airline transport pilot license requirement change resulted in greater safety and higher compensation for entering this career. Commercial Pilot’s have fewer opportunities but this is due to the high cost of operating trainers. If we had cheaper operational costs more pilots would fly for fun and get their 1500 hours without griping about having to train the next line of pilots. CFI work teaches you patience and people skills along with a higher level of processing all aspects of flight including leadership.
We are better off now with the “1500 hour rule”. Put in your time or spend your own dime. But stop opening these threads every day. |
Originally Posted by VisionWings
(Post 3529098)
But stop opening these threads every day.
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Rules fine for two reasons...
It acts as a filter for many people (including psychological) before they're allowed into the pointy end of a transport jet in a 121 operation. Due to differences in the training methods between the FAA and JAA systems it helps maintain an overall equivalent level of safety. Plus the money is great now that you can't just pull a guy off the street and have a pilot in 9 months - companies need to start thinking sustainably instead of trying to race each other to the bottom in the name of investor worship and quarterly results. |
Originally Posted by VisionWings
(Post 3529098)
But stop opening these threads every day.
Originally Posted by calamity0187
(Post 3529138)
Sorry man, that's not a decision for you to make on these forums.
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Originally Posted by QRH Bingo
(Post 3529252)
But it could be a prudent decision for you to try a search first; considering all the existing threads and discussions already in place on this topic.
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There is no such thing as the "1500hr rule". There is a requirement to hold an ATP certificate. There are multiple options to get an ATP at significantly less than 1500hrs.
Are you suggesting that people who work as airline pilots should not have to hold an airline transport certificate? |
The current reductions are a joke (I make no opinion on military experience because I haven’t met anyone who has used the military exception at 750hrs). I’ve met 1500hr pilots who shouldn’t qualify and plenty more 1000hr 141 pilots who definitely don’t have the maturity or experience to succeed in training. They don’t know how to reach the application level of knowledge and everything they know is rote and at such a basic level. They do all their experience building at the same 3 airports in steam gauge vfr. Having the experience of actually needing to be a pic is priceless. Making those decisions on the fly in actual imc going into and out of unfamiliar airport, glass cockpit experience, high performance and use of autopilot all are great experience builders. Having a degree in aviation doesn’t make you a leader, more experience or a better decision maker than anyone else with higher education. You’d experience and leadership is build in the cockpit doing new things into new places. Too many 141 instructor pilots are sheltered and carried by their program and the rules set out for them. Sure it gets people ratings but once they have those ratings it does nothing to help an instructor with 250hrs learn anything till they hit 1000.
I would advocate a general reduction for any degree holder and further reduction if you meet certain experience requirements in addition to holding a college degree. |
The 1500 hour rule is not restrictive. You can still have a fulfilling career in aviation, can fly almost any jet under
The sun, and fly for 135 operations. The rule is just for 121 operations which isn’t all there is in aviation for those willing to look around. |
Originally Posted by Cglyn
(Post 3529646)
The 1500 hour rule is not restrictive. You can still have a fulfilling career in aviation, can fly almost any jet under
The sun, and fly for 135 operations. The rule is just for 121 operations which isn’t all there is in aviation for those willing to look around. |
Simple...
It was a political knee-jerk reaction by Congress and Obama to further their agenda on the deaths of those involved in Colgan in order to give a gift to the unions. It had nothing to do with safety. |
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3529656)
That’s not true as it also applies to 135. Specifically if you’re referring to needing an atp to fly in 121 yes you can work as sic in 135 but you still need an atp to act as pic in 135. And besides that you’ll be really restricted because the faa doesn’t rule the 135 world insurance does and the insurance requirements are way more restrictive than the faa most jobs I’ve seen out there also want an atp in the right seat.
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 3529676)
Simple...
It was a political knee-jerk reaction by Congress and Obama to further their agenda on the deaths of those involved in Colgan in order to give a gift to the unions. It had nothing to do with safety. |
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3529656)
That’s not true as it also applies to 135. Specifically if you’re referring to needing an atp to fly in 121 yes you can work as sic in 135 but you still need an atp to act as pic in 135. And besides that you’ll be really restricted because the faa doesn’t rule the 135 world insurance does and the insurance requirements are way more restrictive than the faa most jobs I’ve seen out there also want an atp in the right seat.
Originally Posted by highfarfast
(Post 3529697)
This is news to me. I flew left seat 135 with just a commercial cert.
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Originally Posted by ToTheTabs
(Post 3529611)
Are you suggesting that people who work as airline pilots should not have to hold an airline transport certificate?
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Originally Posted by 4dalulz
(Post 3529731)
Did you eat yellow snow as a child? And possibly as an adult?
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Originally Posted by calamity0187
(Post 3529968)
What an incredibly disingenuous thing to say.
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Originally Posted by highfarfast
(Post 3530036)
It s not really. ATP has always required 1500 hrs.
For those that came here to give real answers to my question, thanks for your help, and I appreciate your candid response. And for those that came here to make strawman arguments or make spiteful comments towards other forum members, I honestly expected better. |
Maybe next time just jump onto one of the 500 other threads on the topic before getting offended by responses to another thread on the same topic that has been discussed ad nauseam.
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