Bingo! But don't assume the majority don't want real representation. ALPA has collected cards from more than 50% of the pilots, but not as many as they want to call for a vote........yet.

How long have you been off IOE now?

I believe right now SKYW is entering a world of hurt. That is just my Fundamental, Operational and Technical assessment of the company.

1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, MESA, RAH, et el. Management's comment . . . "Oh! You noticed that!"

2) Their stock chart looks headed technically down to $17.00 or lower. The other carriers (MESA, FRNT, XJT, RJET, LCC, UAUA, CAL, JBLU, all look lower too)

3) Attrition. They are having difficulties staffing pilots, rampers, flight attendants. People are leaving the company. I believe in December SKYW came out and said that it was short around 300-400 ground people in Denver.

4) Lack of Professionalism among the rank and file. If you ever pass through SLC ( I do on ocassion) You will see younger and younger faces. These faces have no idea what Decorum is. (They chew gum, talk during safety briefings when flying another airline, chase each other in the concourse, and in one incidence while flying First class in one of Delta's new Crj900's, (or SKYW I guess) I actually heard a whole conversation that two Flight Attendants were having about religion, marriage, divorce, and the party they went to the night before. The person seated next to me and I were dumbfounded.

5) Operationally they lack the systems to run things efficiently and people to implement what systems they do have. SKYW is undergoing difficulties because of the growth they have experienced. The size of their organization has out paced the operational functionality they have in place. They are holding on too tightly vs. allowing their people to help grow their airline.

6) New leadership. SKYW replaced most of their Experienced senior executive staff a few months ago. I'm not one to believe that the new staff is able to grasp what is needed to run an airline. They don't have the experience. But with that said, they also are not as jaded as previous management. Yet! Just take a look at NWA, blaming cancellations on pilots, weather, controllers, maintenance. Basically blaming it on anything that the public will buy vs. stating that they (NWA Corporate) screwed up in assessing demand. Management is pointing the finger. Expect to see this happen soon at SKYW if UAL and DAL start redistributing flying to other carriers (MESA excepted)

7) Their income comes from their contracts. If they cannot retain those contracts, or if UAL and DAL decide to start operating larger RJ's, SKYW will slowly deminish. It is not out of the realm. With UAL ****ed off, and DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.

8) A Union Drive- It hurts the company by driving away investors.

9) Industry Turmoil and Passenger resentment toward the lack of service in the airline industry. As well as Congress' potential Airline Bill of Rights.

There is much more that can be added to the list but that is a basic start. It's not just SKYW, you can add other airlines under many of these topics.

If this is true . . . quite interesting.

Incorrect, what about the 15 CRJ200's for Midwest, and the '6-8 month' MKE upgrades?

Any SKW payrate defender needs to look at the rates for Horizon. Tops in the industry for the CRJ700, by a large margin too. BTW Seattle is not that far away from St. George, UT, either.

Really ???????

DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.

Where did you hear that one from.. I would really like to know. I ask because I jump seat on Delta Main Line about 2-3 times a week and no main line pilot has mentioned that to me,

Delta has been looking at a 100 seat aircraft for a couple of years now. They know Boeing is going to follow on the 787 with a 737 sized replacement using the technology from the 787 program. Like the 787, the new Boeing small jet is percieved as a game changer.

Delta has also been seriously considering the E190 from what I've read, but they don't like the performance of the aircraft. They don't like the ergonomics of the CRJ as a mainline jet.

So the best option seems to be to wait for Boeing. However, Boeing is waiting on GE and the other engine manufacturers and the 737 is still selling well. Delta has 10 737-600's coming, which is a 100 seat jet.

That comes from the fact that when the delta boys signed their contract they put in a 90 seat ERJ payrate.

Smart they are. Midwest Airlines flys 86 seat 717's.

[COLOR="Blue"]Exp,

you respond with pure emotion, no facts to back up your arguement, and chose to completely ignore the arguement I and others laid out.

"You are wrong that Jerry increases our Pay incrementally only to stay ahead of those represented by ALPA."

No, that's not wrong, and previous strings have detailed this. Maybe you didn't have time or the inclination to look them up, but two were laid out for you in this string.

(1)Com air strike.... What contractual gains came to you within the next 12 months after they got a contract?

(2) JA buys ASA and comes to the pilot group and says we have to take a 13% pay cut. Our union fights it (how, with a binding contract otherwise he could have just enforced the pay cut and we would have had to accept it or quit) So then what happens. Skywest pilots get over ride to fly 70/90.

These are facts, they are not in dispute by anyone that has been around the industry for the past 7-15 years and knows what they are talking about.

I really don't care that your sick of hearing that their is a moral arguement, because their is one. You reap the benefits of other peoples efforts, and then some of you even have the arrogance to brag about it. That's wrong, plain and simple. I won't lay it all out again, but go back line by line and respond with an intelligent arguement to previous post. It is not selfish to expect that one group who reaps the benefit of the efforts of the many, get on board, join the team (gasp, as you would say) and pay their dues (NOT JUST CASH, but time and effort).

"To what, please a few of you?" If that statement were true, it might have some wieght. Unfortunately it's not. The vast majority of airline pilot are represented and an even larger majority of those represented realize the need for it. Your not pleasing a few, but rather getting on the team that the vast majority of the industry has done.

Is it true that ALPA would destroy the relationship with Mang. that you enjoy? Maybe. the relationship with Mang. is all about the people that you elect, the expectations of the pilot group, and the day to day conduct of the pilot group. Their are ALPA carriers that have a good relationship with Mang. (Xjet) and their are in house that have a rocky relationship (AA).

"chomping at the bit for a paycheck" That arguement (as another post put up) is completely wrong. Regional carriers are still supplemented by ALPA national, maybe someday that will change, but right now it is true. See the arguement the other gentleman laid out, it was well said.

It is apparent to me that I will not change your mind. That's fine. I can not expect a man to understand the moral arguement when it is apparent he has none. But, for the many who read this forum and are still trying to make a decision, I hope you read all the post and consider the arguments (or lack of in EXP case) when you decide what you think is best for your LONG TERM Career.

Stick /COLOR]

I don't know this, but many people feel that they put that in the contract with no intention of flying them. That maybe management did that as tool to cap the pay to make the regional guys fly them. Here's the argument that supports that.

Regional jets at Legacy carriers don't work. per seat mile cost is higher with less seats. The only way Delta is going to make money with their more expensive work group, labor contracts, rules and general attitude of how many people it takes to get the job done, is by flying bigger airplanes (which is the trend at Delta) not smaller.

Why would Delta management give regional airline managment that they do
not own such a tool? 1. The are the puppet masters...... 2. The cost would eventually get passed on to the Legacy when ALL regional pilots pay goes up.

I don't know if you know this, I'm not even sure if it's true, but I heard the rate they agreed upon was $95 an hour. That's less than ASA makes for the 70. I can't see a Delta pilot flying a bigger plane for less pay than an ASA pilot in a smaller plane. Infact, I'd bet the farm against that.

Stick

Ellen, as someone else posted...make sure you get the correct info before you start something. Here is the link to the judge's actual decision, read it for yourself...as a matter of fact pass it along to all your friends :)

http://www.skywestalpa.org/documents/Judge.Breyer's.Opinion.and.Preliminary.Injunction. pdf

Skypest got their press release out first for a very obvious reason, to MISINFORM all the kool-aid drinking skypest pilots. It's that law of primacy thing--get it out there first, oh wait...a bunch of those skypest people upgrading in 6-8 months probably never had to instruct, and don't know what that means :^) (Tongue in cheek folks)

As for the pay issue people keep talking about...it's called raising the bar for a reason, it DOES effect everyone else. I highly doubt skypest would be getting paid what they are if it hadn't been for the ALPA contracts before them (Comair, ACA, ASA, AWAC). Now what does skypest give back to everyone....flying f'n 90 seat airframes for a 5% override!! Thanks guys! I really want to fly a 90 seat airframe for $65. Thanks!

If skywest pilots want to take the chance of getting bent over by mgmt without representation, go right ahead. I really don't give a crap if you want to vote in ALPA or not...just quit being sell-outs!

Not sure what the current drop in SKW stock price is, but the first day that it dropped significantly a few days ago, there was a court ruling against SKW concerning where to park the E120's at LAX.

Insulting a bunch of folks who you are trying to convince to join your union may not be the brightest idea. You're starting to remind me of the useless clowns on the MEC at my last airline.

SKW hiring mins (still 1000/100) means that almost everyone was a CFI at some point.

Upgrade mins are still 2500 w/ 1000 turbine crew so anyone upgrading in less than 18 months almost certainly was a military pilot or an escapee from another alpa regional.

Work rules and bonuses mean that a $65/hour at SKW goes a lot further than $65/hour at most other carriers. Pretending otherwise is ludicrous and it's like arguing with a 2 year-old..there's really no reason to bother.

SKW is in the top 10-20% for rregional compensation, not the very best but certainly not dragging things down like several alpa regionals that I could think of. I know that my numbers are correct here because I researched the heck out of it before I changed employers.

Why don't you go do something productive and take your anger out on ornstein and your fraternal brothers over at mesa? They are the ones who really deserve it, especially anyone who took a job there in the last year! :mad:

dude wtf, you have been at skywest for like 2 months right?? you are still brand new, and on probation i am sure. you know nothing about what skywest needs, you have probably only gotten 3 paychecks from them. what do you know about the industry and what needs to happen. you know nothing. you are still spilling out the management propaganda. you think uncle jerry has your best intrests in mind? omg man.

anyway i have changed my opinion on skywest as far as alpa goes. i officially don't care whether they join or not. i won't see any more money if they do join. but i do think it would be in their best intrest to join and have legal representation. of course skywest is a top tier regional now, but when others keep moving ahead and negotiating new contracts, skywests pay wont move (ask my friend on the bro over there how much his pay raise was!). i honestly do agree with ellen for a change, which i have never done before. skywest is heading for a down fall. i have already told you guys what happened in marathon,fl, and now i have found the same situation is happening in 3 other cities where skywest/asa is being kicked out and someone else being brought in. my friend was in a meeting with j.a. a couple weeks ago and the strains between delta and skywest are really starting to show. don't be suprised for some more announcements to come. and like i said they wont be good. the stock price is on its way down, investors are getting leery (sp), and the industry is in turmoil. a united airlines merger is coming and who knows how that will screw things up.. just something to think about.

#1, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. Like I said, if you guys don't feel you need the protection...don't vote for ALPA. I could care less if you are ALPA or not, just help raise the bar.

#2, You can not tell me that skywest hasn't hired anyone under those mins. There are people on this board who will attest to it, as they have done it. Maybe now it can be covered up by people from the bottom of ASA's list transferring over because of losing their flying, and being replaced by 500 hour pilots at ASA...but ASA is owned now by skywest...so that means that skywest is hiring 500 hour pilots. Technicality, maybe, but its the truth. Either way, like I said, it was tongue-in-cheek humor directed more at the entire industry.

#3, All other ALPA/Teamster carriers have work rules, we all have rigs and guarantees (although some might be better than others), so you can throw that comment out. But, your comment is actually helping support my point...other ALPA carriers do NOW have worse work rules and pay rates than they had in the past. That was caused by the downward pressure of regionals undercutting other regionals, pilots selling out so they could get growth and fast upgrades. That brought down all the ALPA carriers who helped make the gains that everyone else reaped. Skywest might be in the top 10-20% right now, but what are they doing to try and take it higher? Why accept where its at now?

I hope your bonuses add up to a lot, an $8/hr difference (skywest-RAH) based on 75hr guarantee for the month equals roughly $7200/yr. Does everyone get the same bonus? Is it more than $7200? If it were a bonus, wouldn't you be better rewarded for your hard work to have that on top of your much better bottom line wage? What's going to happen to your bonus if the stock tanks? Bottom line...did Southwest sell out their pay rates just because they have profit sharing and bonuses??

Lastly, this is nothing personal or directed at only skywest. This thread is a "skywest" thread, and thus my attention is directed at skywest. Trust my, I have similar feelings about other carriers ALPA, Teamster, or whatever. As for Mesa, they at least can say they sold out to stop an alter ego, what can skywest say they sold out for? Growth based on picking up the flying that was taken away from other ALPA carriers who did try to stand up for what was right?

It seems like this thread is disappearing...but I have heard a lot of reference/justification in regards to the "bonus" that pilots receive at skywest...just curious if anyone can actually answer this with real numbers?? BTW, the above figures were actually wrong...its a $9/hr difference between a 5yr 900 capt at skywest and a 5yr 175/190 capt at RAH. That puts the number closer to $8000. Anyway, can someone please correct me if I'm wrong??

I suspect the work rules at SKW make up for some of that difference.

$5000 in bonuses would be a reasonable ballpark bonus number for a 5 year SKW RJ CA, maybe even $8000 if a couple of quarters turned out good.

BTW it's SlyWest, and I'm the only allowed to call them that. If you want to quote RAH 175/190 numbers why don't you also mention that their FOs fly 90 seat aircraft for 37 seat wages?

We had that at TSA: 10 early, 10 late.;)

THANK YOU. Enough of the SKW-bashing!

Well...lets see...its a skypest thread...thus the discussion about skypest...and the discussion was about your crappy captain pay for flying 90 seat airframes. Besides, aren't you the same people who said f/O pay doesn't matter because you are going to upgrade in 9.2 seconds at skypest. OK, OK, OK, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that a $2/hr difference makes you all that much better. It IS better (thank God), but I don't think you can go hang your hat on that because you're still going to be a sell out when you start flying the 900 as a captain for your current wages.

Thank you for using real numbers. But I still disagree with this statement, because if you look in that thread about "beyond payscales", skywests rules aren't much different than RAH who I used for comparison, or many other places for that matter. Either way, thank you, but don't you think you should be paid a more appropriate rate, and your performance bonus being exactly that...a bonus based on your performance in addition to what you SHOULD be getting paid???

BTW...I'm not just picking on skywest, no place in this industry is perfect. Most of us have been beat down, and forced into worse contracts than we may have had. I'm just tired of seeing what seems to be an exemption for skywest. I'm not sure why everyone seems to look the other way in regards to them, but it is not helping this industry, they are not the greatest thing since sliced bread. When you are comparing a polished turd to a bunch of steaming piles of dung, its still a turd!

Do you know WHY it's like that...? No? Ok...then ****.

Sorry, but you can't use the Republic defense for having a single FO pay scale for the 135-190 in your 2003 CBA.

6 pages and no one has been able explain why is ok for skywest folks to fly 70-90 seaters for 50 seater rates. I made $4,500.00 in extras and soft money last year, but hourly rate is hourly rate....bonuses, profit sharing, etc they can all go away, but hey why am I wasting my breath? Your management can do no wrong, and of course if tomorrow there is a down turn in the industry, they're not going to come to you guys and take all those things away. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I wrote a whole bunch of stuff out...but at the end of the day...no one on here could really give a sh!t as to why RAH's pay scale looks the way that it does. Everything I could say about "the state of the industry" "no junior manning" "fighting off a whipsaw attempt" and all the other stuff our current contract DID do for us will be only met with "Well, you should have done better".

Well why is it not ok? If they want to do it, let them.

I think I said something to this effect on page 1.

Cuz the only reason SKW makes what they make is because of other carriers unions trying to up the bar. SKW isn't giving them this stuff outta the goodness of their hearts...they need to stay competitive with what other regionals pay (I can't believe i just said that)...especially when they're not unionized. I'm sure that little gem saves them a lot in legal fee's usually spent in defending why they fired said pilot, or why they gave him an illegal reassignment, broke their contract, etc. etc. I think people are tired of paying dues to raise the bar at their carriers so SKW can tag along when all the hard-work is over.

If you still don't understand, and STILL have to ask this question, you WILL NEVER get it...and that is why we are ALL doomed!!! Keep selling out for your growth and upgrade...its NEVER going to come back and haunt you :D

Most pilot groups have settled on crappier contracts to protect from alter egos (even if they may have given up too much, ie. Mesa to stop Freedom). I still haven't heard what perfect reason skywest has, anyone??? Staying non-union and underbidding other carriers for growth??? Sorry, that isn't a very valid reason to me...almost...while not crossing a picket line, but still replacing union workers at a lesser rate...dare I say...scabish???

And if you must ask the above question still...ask yourself, if what skywest does, doesn't have an effect on the industry, how easy do you think it was for Comair to try and hold on to all the gains they made (and thus helped all of us) while you were selling yourselves out to get the 900 flying???

THANK YOU! It can all go away! And for those groups who have their compensation tied to the rest of the industry, how can the rest of us raise our rates when you sell out yours under the justification of a bonus?? Answer...we can't!! And thus the race to the bottom continues...

But undercutting is the American way!

The only time SKYwest pilots will see the need to Vote in ALPA or any other UNION is when managemanement really gives it to them in the posterior with no KY., Things are Great now but I like to view Unions as Insurance companies, I sure dont want to pay the dues but If I get in a wreck I am sure glad I have coverage...I am not bashing SKYWest just an observation Skywest like Most REgionals will EAT their own we are our worst enemies we have no unity we all brag and say my company is better than yours ect ect,, while management plays us all like puppets and sit back and laugh.. How about this for thought Starting Pay at the regionals should be 1$ per hour per seat for first year captain and the FO should get paid 65 percent of that at first year then SEcond year CAptain should be 1.3 with the FO pay still at 65% of that and 3 year Captain 1.4$ per seat per hour.. I am not a business major but I think this is Fair I wonder if we would have a shortage of qualified pilots if the compensation was decent...

Hows about 20 dollars a seat first year for captain.

I’m not sure how you or anyone else could possibly predict that.

Runs in cycles and is hitting all the regionals as it always does. Only going to get worse for all of them as soon as United starts hiring again.

I’m not sure how you would know this unless you work in I.T. or another department that uses or has some hand in being the administrator of these applications.


Most of their experienced senior executives? Only the COO and VP of Market Planning left. The people that replaced them were not new to the company. “Most” is probably a bit overstated.

And the 50-70 seat flying will magically go away and be replaced by higher priced mainline pilots with 90-100 seat airplanes? As far as United being ****ed off, they have inflicted much of the damage to their Express Carriers and are either too stupid or arrogant to know it. Depeaking, schedule changes every three weeks, deplorable Express facilities at each UA hub, constant subbing of Express flow times, and unrealistic MST.

Lately Delta has not been talking about 90, or 100, seat RJ's to new hire classes. The most recent rumor is trading in RJ's for MD90's from Asia.

Apparently Delta does not like the E195/CRJ1000 enough to think that it would be worth investing in. Boeing's 737 replacement and possibly Bombardier's C series may be a better fit in the 2015 range when the MD88's will start to be phased out. This is my speculation.

In the interim the MD90's will help out and the CRJ900/E170's seem to be working.

God bless the pilots who actually do this stuff, but what happens to the guys at Skywest who get a DUI, get arrested on overnights or do something incredibly "bad." Does the current union offer the protection that ALPA does for those few wayward sheep? I know of a x-Skywest F/O who was instantly fired for an unmentionable.

I don't have a major opinion one way or another about ALPA and the drama between ASA and the Skywest folk. I do know that when you mess up ALPA will cover your but two ways from Sunday while addressing every legal angle. That in itself is worth the union dues to me.

Does the current inhouse union at Skywest do a good job protecting guys who make mistakes.

Thoughts comments corrections?

I think it's this kind of thinking that turns me off from unions. Collective bargaining is all well and good, but the basic concept which irritates me is that people are getting something they ordinarily wouldn't, or just flat out don't deserve. I'm not saying unions are all bad, but is there really an excuse for getting a DUI or being arrested? (I suppose some wayward cop could just arrest you, but there's probably no excuse for being convicted.)
These things generally just don't happen; they're the result of people making poor decisions and putting themselves in bad situtations. So why does the union want to defend them? What recourse does the company have? If I were running the show, I'd want to fire you after a DUI.

The issue is not getting a guilty person something they don't deserve, the issue is making sure the individual gets a defense and is not falsely terminated.

Delta had 10 flight attendants and one pilot fired for failing drug tests (all out of the same base) a few years ago. It was a huge fight and Delta did not want to give loyal good employees the benefit of the doubt that all of the sudden these folks all had the same problem. It took an extensive investigation that was very expensive, but in the end it was proven that the lab was bad. How would you like to work someplace that used a bad lab (unknowingly in Delta's case) and fired you for a false positive? Your record permanently blemished so you can never replace what was lost. If these folks were SKW employees it would have never been fixed.

GUYS!! They will NEVER get it!!

I know the first year f/o's and the new hires are drunk on the koolaid and overwhelmed with SJS, but I would expect the guys that have been there while to have a clue.