Zero to Hero
05-12-2023, 09:13 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 770
Zero to Hero
Even though these questions seem flight school oriented, I’m specifically seeking the opinions of current regional pilots who have more recent experience.
I have a buddy with no aviation experience who is looking to do a mid life career change, and it’s been 20+ years since I was in the CFI world. Back then there were only couple “fast track” type programs, and at that time financing was really difficult to find for a person of average means, and regionals weren’t touching pilots who only had ATP mins.
In the 2000’s money was cheap and easy to borrow, and with the regional expansions the hiring mins dropped to 250 com/multi. I remember flying with brand new FOs with big flight training debts from schools like ATP or colleges with the degree + flight training and the payments were half of their income or more. At that time the path to a major or legacy was definitely not a given, and years of low regional wages had a lot of them leave the industry. Obviously the environment at the moment is a lot different in many ways at this time.
Would any of you be willing to share your experience with these zero time start programs, amounts you paid/financed, realistic timelines to regional hire, and overall thoughts on value for the time and money spent to get to where you are now? Even better is this is a second job or career change.
Thanks in advance
I have a buddy with no aviation experience who is looking to do a mid life career change, and it’s been 20+ years since I was in the CFI world. Back then there were only couple “fast track” type programs, and at that time financing was really difficult to find for a person of average means, and regionals weren’t touching pilots who only had ATP mins.
In the 2000’s money was cheap and easy to borrow, and with the regional expansions the hiring mins dropped to 250 com/multi. I remember flying with brand new FOs with big flight training debts from schools like ATP or colleges with the degree + flight training and the payments were half of their income or more. At that time the path to a major or legacy was definitely not a given, and years of low regional wages had a lot of them leave the industry. Obviously the environment at the moment is a lot different in many ways at this time.
Would any of you be willing to share your experience with these zero time start programs, amounts you paid/financed, realistic timelines to regional hire, and overall thoughts on value for the time and money spent to get to where you are now? Even better is this is a second job or career change.
Thanks in advance
05-12-2023, 02:51 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 410
Right now it's a pilot's market with unprecedented movement and hiring at all levels. But we are at best several years from things trending the other direction. Something big happening with the economy / US dollar could make that happen a lot sooner. Such is the cyclical nature of the airline business.
Right now, we are in good times. Personally, I anticipate the good times to stick around for a while but who knows. Hopefully your friend has savings to fall back on if things go south. If he wants it, he should go for it without delay.
As far as the zero to hero programs - I did not do that so I can't really speak to it. They are the most expensive way to get ratings and many times leave a lot to be desired with the quality of instruction, especially with places like ATP where you learn to fly by somebody who learned to fly 5 minutes ago.
I usually recommend finding some mom and pop FBO with a retired dude and a 172 to learn from part 61. Less stressful and way more fun.
Right now, we are in good times. Personally, I anticipate the good times to stick around for a while but who knows. Hopefully your friend has savings to fall back on if things go south. If he wants it, he should go for it without delay.
As far as the zero to hero programs - I did not do that so I can't really speak to it. They are the most expensive way to get ratings and many times leave a lot to be desired with the quality of instruction, especially with places like ATP where you learn to fly by somebody who learned to fly 5 minutes ago.
I usually recommend finding some mom and pop FBO with a retired dude and a 172 to learn from part 61. Less stressful and way more fun.
05-12-2023, 03:24 PM
#3
Has Seen Bigfoot
Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 19
A few quick thoughts:
-Doing 8-10 dual flights at the Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot level, before they go all-in, can give you an idea of if it is for them.
-To be blunt, just make sure this isn't a phase or a "passing fancy" (lol) before committing.
-When you go to a school, pay as you go. Don't give them a lump sump (unless a university program or the like), that can be bad if you decide it's not for you 10-20 hours in, but they have your money.
-Going to a 141 university program (or schools like ATP or CAE, though I've heard horrid reviews from a lot of people about places like those) has partnerships allowing you to get to regionals and some majors at 1000 hours.
-University Programs (if accredited, check on that) allow you to get an R-ATP at 1000 hours. They also train you up to the level you want, and hire you back as a CFI. Insurance and liability can also be better. Wherever they go, make sure they are insured and that you insure yourself. Don't risk it for the biscuit.
Happy to answer other questions. Best of luck
-Doing 8-10 dual flights at the Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot level, before they go all-in, can give you an idea of if it is for them.
-To be blunt, just make sure this isn't a phase or a "passing fancy" (lol) before committing.
-When you go to a school, pay as you go. Don't give them a lump sump (unless a university program or the like), that can be bad if you decide it's not for you 10-20 hours in, but they have your money.
-Going to a 141 university program (or schools like ATP or CAE, though I've heard horrid reviews from a lot of people about places like those) has partnerships allowing you to get to regionals and some majors at 1000 hours.
-University Programs (if accredited, check on that) allow you to get an R-ATP at 1000 hours. They also train you up to the level you want, and hire you back as a CFI. Insurance and liability can also be better. Wherever they go, make sure they are insured and that you insure yourself. Don't risk it for the biscuit.
Happy to answer other questions. Best of luck
05-12-2023, 06:43 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 770
Originally Posted by Danger19
A few quick thoughts:
-Doing 8-10 dual flights at the Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot level, before they go all-in, can give you an idea of if it is for them.
-To be blunt, just make sure this isn't a phase or a "passing fancy" (lol) before committing.
-When you go to a school, pay as you go. Don't give them a lump sump (unless a university program or the like), that can be bad if you decide it's not for you 10-20 hours in, but they have your money.
-Going to a 141 university program (or schools like ATP or CAE, though I've heard horrid reviews from a lot of people about places like those) has partnerships allowing you to get to regionals and some majors at 1000 hours.
-University Programs (if accredited, check on that) allow you to get an R-ATP at 1000 hours. They also train you up to the level you want, and hire you back as a CFI. Insurance and liability can also be better. Wherever they go, make sure they are insured and that you insure yourself. Don't risk it for the biscuit.
Happy to answer other questions. Best of luck
-Doing 8-10 dual flights at the Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot level, before they go all-in, can give you an idea of if it is for them.
-To be blunt, just make sure this isn't a phase or a "passing fancy" (lol) before committing.
-When you go to a school, pay as you go. Don't give them a lump sump (unless a university program or the like), that can be bad if you decide it's not for you 10-20 hours in, but they have your money.
-Going to a 141 university program (or schools like ATP or CAE, though I've heard horrid reviews from a lot of people about places like those) has partnerships allowing you to get to regionals and some majors at 1000 hours.
-University Programs (if accredited, check on that) allow you to get an R-ATP at 1000 hours. They also train you up to the level you want, and hire you back as a CFI. Insurance and liability can also be better. Wherever they go, make sure they are insured and that you insure yourself. Don't risk it for the biscuit.
Happy to answer other questions. Best of luck
Again despite the trope about “asking for a friend” I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. We’ve been friends since before my own regional days and we’ve had many conversations about the ups and downs of the industry and I’ve done well to manage his expectations, especially at his age, of where he could realistically get to. Although it’s been a very long time since I’ve done any meaningful flying in small airplanes, he’s been along on several trips when I rented planes and always wanted to ride “shotgun” and was the type of passenger who enjoyed helping with the pre flights and looking up frequencies on the sectionals and AFDs (yes there was life before foreflight and G1000) and as a CFI he got plenty of stick time under my watch. He’s also familiar with the difference between 61 and 141 training.
My questions specifically are for anyone who has done a fast track type 141 program recently, what they realistically spent, and their timeline to a regional.
thanks for the responses though!
05-14-2023, 11:56 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 393
Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght
Again despite the trope about “asking for a friend” I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. We’ve been friends since before my own regional days and we’ve had many conversations about the ups and downs of the industry and I’ve done well to manage his expectations, especially at his age, of where he could realistically get to. Although it’s been a very long time since I’ve done any meaningful flying in small airplanes, he’s been along on several trips when I rented planes and always wanted to ride “shotgun” and was the type of passenger who enjoyed helping with the pre flights and looking up frequencies on the sectionals and AFDs (yes there was life before foreflight and G1000) and as a CFI he got plenty of stick time under my watch. He’s also familiar with the difference between 61 and 141 training.
My questions specifically are for anyone who has done a fast track type 141 program recently, what they realistically spent, and their timeline to a regional.
thanks for the responses though!
My questions specifically are for anyone who has done a fast track type 141 program recently, what they realistically spent, and their timeline to a regional.
thanks for the responses though!
started at instrument. 2 years start to major. Can be done but gotta be willing able and lucky to work your ass off. In most cases though those zero to hero programs will get you all your ratings in 6 months but then you’ll spend 3 years instructing for them because they can barely offer 50 hours a month. So it’s best to not instruct for those places. If the goal is airlines asap it’s all about hours, not gimmicky agreements they may have with those companies. I specifically went to atp. It wasn’t easy but I came out in just 6 months with all my ratings and no failures. It’s a far cry from high success rate of success means finishing on time with no failures. Many times over they employ instructors that are likely under qualified and only know what the institution told them (not always the legal or correct answer) and the instructors care more about themselves and their hours than teaching. So your friend needs to be intelligent and disciplined enough to teach themselves. But they should try to find a busy independent flight school to work for. They’ll get their hours faster
05-18-2023, 10:33 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2021
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght
Again despite the trope about “asking for a friend” I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. We’ve been friends since before my own regional days and we’ve had many conversations about the ups and downs of the industry and I’ve done well to manage his expectations, especially at his age, of where he could realistically get to. Although it’s been a very long time since I’ve done any meaningful flying in small airplanes, he’s been along on several trips when I rented planes and always wanted to ride “shotgun” and was the type of passenger who enjoyed helping with the pre flights and looking up frequencies on the sectionals and AFDs (yes there was life before foreflight and G1000) and as a CFI he got plenty of stick time under my watch. He’s also familiar with the difference between 61 and 141 training.
My questions specifically are for anyone who has done a fast track type 141 program recently, what they realistically spent, and their timeline to a regional.
thanks for the responses though!
My questions specifically are for anyone who has done a fast track type 141 program recently, what they realistically spent, and their timeline to a regional.
thanks for the responses though!
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