Mesa Street Capt Mins
 

Just a curiosity more than anything....

I hear Mesa is hiring CAs off the street... anybody have an idea what their mins for the T-props would be?

minimum I mean maximum of two brain cells to go work anywhere near that sh*thole company

So if I have 250 TT, 25 Multi, and three brain cells am I over qualified?

I figured I'd get some of that dished out. Anybody else?

A friend of mine got the Dash 8 out of Denver with about 1800 TT 800 multi. He flew bank check out of Seattle (single pilot) for about a year.

Sorry man, I didn't mean to stray here. But I'm kind of sure 1000 PIC is about the only min... I'm not too sure on the specifics, or even if I'm right.

Well, I went in as a street CA for them a while back and the B-190 was just straight ATP mins as you have to have an ATP to be a CA. The dash I think fell under ICAO mins which would require the extra PIC time.
One thing to think about though is the extreme likelyhood of getting violated as a New 121 guy and a CA. I took that route and it almost gave me ulcers. I got out clean but some other I worked with didn't. Something to think about. Remember Mesa has the FAA on speed dial for turning ppl in.

Good God!? is that for street captain?! Those are the numbers i had when i went to Eagle (to be a SAAB FO) many moons ago. I was by far the lowest time guy in the class. I would not want to be in the back of that DH8 for his first 500 hours or so. Geez?!:eek:

What are some common violations that new 121 captains are likely to commit? Any more likely than a new 135 captain? Why would Mesa have an interest in reporting violations of their captains?

Yeah street CA. He just got his fed ride done a few weeks ago

Self Disclosure!
 

This question brings up an excellent topic, which is especially applicable to mesa: Self Disclosure!

The concept behind self-disclosure is that when an FAR is violated in 121, the operator and any licensed individuals involved (pilots, dispatchers, mechanics) are jointly liable. The company will get a large fine ($10K for small violations) and the license holders will get suspended or revoked.

Now the FAA clearly understands that essentially all violations are really the fault of the conniving and unethical labor types, and that the honest, upstanding, and law abiding company and managers tried their hardest to prevent any and all violations. Occasionally even the company's great efforts cannot stem the tied of employee malfeasance, and a violation occurs. Since the FAA knows it wasn't really the company's fault, and they don't really want the company to have to pay a fine they allow them a way out: Self Disclosure.

The way this works is that if the company becomes aware of a violation committed by one of their employees, they must RUN (not walk) to the nearest phone and contact the POI...before he finds out about it on his own. If they fullfill their snitch duties, then the company is off the hook for the fine!

Here's one "hypothetical" example of how this works at mesa...the company needs to cover a flight badly (their performance numbers are poor, they need to catch up by month end, and they just can't afford to CANX). Unfortunately, they are out of reserves who are legal for the flight. Crew tracking hand-picks a really new, unexperienced, and not-too-bright reserve FO. They call this fellow up and tell him he has a trip that REALLY needs to get covered. If he bites, fine. If he balks due to duty limits, they will make up some BS about the computer showing he's legal or something like that. Our hero accepts the trip, and violates FAR's. Meanwhile back at the ranch....

- This whole deal was arranged by the manager of CT
- It was executed by a junior crew tracker, using a cell phone (instead of the landlines which are recorded)
- They did NOT enter the FO's trip in the computer...because the computer would flag it red for everybody to see.
- Once the flight completes, THEN they enter the trip, it get's flagged, and the CT manager contacts the CP, who self discloses to the POI.
- The company comes away clean, looking good, with no fine.
- The CT manager has plausible deniability, and saved the performance numbers (and his bonus).
- The junior crew tracker doesn't have a license anyway, so the FAA can't do anything to her.
- The FO gets a letter of investigation from the FAA after ten or more days...naturally the company didn't give him a heads up that they threw him under the bus, and the fed naturally ran out the clock on a nasa form (which probably wouldn't have helped anyway).

This is why you have to track your own flight and duty times...especially at the lower-tier companies. I have a good buddy who got self-disclosed, violated, and fired.

Last I heard, we waived ICAO minimums for the Dash 8 operation in JFK. As that operation is being shut down at the end of this month, I'm not sure that would still apply. But think FAA ATP mins for starters, and possibly ICAO minimums.

Alright, I know many of you read this and said No Way! they would do that...Knowingly...Believe it. The violations get a lot simpler than this one though. Keep in mind that the street CA's only work on the T-props and likely do a lot of RSV work, which means they aren't familiar with the route and also likely have a 250 hour pilot to back them up. (Mesa got in enough trouble they had to raise the green on green to 150 in type). Here are a few that I remember
- It's cold and dark, F.O. does very fast poor walk around and misses something. CA goes down with ship.
- F.O. misses some required placards in the cabin...(Stop shaking your head this really happened and yes the crew got violated)
-15 minute turn on green RSV crew in DFW. Departure not correctly understood or entered and the crew turns the wrong direction after t/o (Remeber 15 minutes is a long turn on one of these a/c)
- In the CA's haste, he is told by MX that the aircraft is ok for return to service and it is signed off. Illegally of course but they didn't want to cnx the flight. The flight goes with paying pax on board. Then lands only to have mx control calling to say oh wait we need to change that write up because actually it isn't legal. And where does that leave the CA.

Always remember that you will have 10 minutes in MOST cases to turn an airplane which includes, looking through the same length release that everyone else gets (8-10 pages at least) to find the mistakes the new dispatchers screwed up on. Get the fuel, bags (which you might help throw), pax on the a/c and briefed, weight and balance done, and many times they will even throw in an a/c swap so you can include preflighting and looking at the books in there too. Now how much time was left to become familiar with that flight plan.

Just don't get out of the gate 1 minute late because then you have to write a email to the regional chief pilot!

So if a couple of you with your 1500 hours that think I am a high time pilot I can handle anything want a stab at that. Go right ahead, that 250 hour guy will back you up and that new dispatcher will help you out. Don't forget to ask yourself one thing though. "Do you feel lucky...well do you punk!"
Sorry had to throw that in there too;) And Rick is absolutely correct they have the FAA on speed dial. I think they get their jollies from taking down pilots. Thats it for now.

Are they still charging the $50 application fee?

I seriously doubt it. In fact, now they're covering the hotel from day one. They used to not pay that until you passed the systems exam.

Thanks Rickair and Xtreme for your valuable info! I was trying to figure out how things could be soooo bad over there. Now I have a better understanding. Sounds like an awful place to work with the deception and what not. Hasn't the FAA caught onto this? Are you telling me that it's better to train a new captain (after reporting a violation on one) than to take the fine?

Lets remember that xtreme flew for air midwest, which is a little different from the rest of the airline.

I am not saying that anything that he said isn't true. But I'll tell you how it is for me on the dash-8 out west.

The captains accomplish the walk around, I believe for the reason that xtreme mentioned: to get a first hand look at the airplane they are about to fly. The captain is also responsible for the FMS, and its operation, thus removing one more way a F/O can "screw him." Both of us review the flight plan on paper and in the box prior to push.

On the dash, (the street captain airframe in question) we have a flight attendant who is responsible for the cabin of the aircraft.

In my almost year of flying the line, I have never seen the release come with in accurate information. Sure, we have had new ones sent to reflect changes in fuel or flight plan, but none with blatantly wrong info on it.

My sim partner was a 250-hour guy that everyone here enjoys ripping on. He was sharp in training, in the sim, and quickly became one of the best, and most well liked F/O's at the airline. The other 4 guys in my class who were of the same background are no different.

I have met pilots at other airlines who have zero personality and have their heads so far up their asses I'm amazed they can safely fly an airplane. I wouldn't trust some of them to fly the blender I sent my grandmother last X-mas, and these guys have 1000's of hours.

I guess it depends on the individual, and not the hours.

There are plenty of threads in the past year or so that have refered to the problems with street CA jobs at Mesa so I won't go into it too much more, but the hour thing tends to bug me too. I think the real problem with a 250 hour pilot is how arrogant they seem to be. They think they are ready for the shuttle or something and it really gets under my skin. I still consider myself low time and I have well over the mins for major carrier I can think of. I attending sim training right now for another a/c but I think I am the most cautious person in the class. I am not in the business of telling the guy sitting next to me that has 5 or 6 types and 10,000 hours how he doesn't know how to fly. Regardless of what many might think experience although not ALWAYS right usually wins over youthful arrogance. That includes 1500 hour street CA's.
In concluion if you are going to take that route you would be best suited to bow your head and take all the advice you can get and plan on studying as if your life depended on it.
Regardless of what other new guys that like to say they have been flying at Mesa for a while and know what goes on over there like to post, I KNOW that almost 33% of the CA's I worked with recieved violations. That doesn't mean they aren't flying today, just that they don't have clean tickets anymore. I don't think anyone is above these problems. I am greatful that I didn't caught in any of those problems in my stay with the company.

The final thought I leave you with is when you have finished researching this on the other threads that discuss it and consider yourself informed, just STOP.....and think why a company the size of Mesa that has been around for 25 years should have to hire street CA's? I think you know the answer.

Oh and sorry for the typing and grammar...I just fly airplanes :)

I agree with all of the above. In addition with regards to violations, i have a friend (i went to college with) at the FAA that oversees a very large regional (not Mesa). He tells me that the resent trend with low time hires and 1 year captains is not lost on them. They are watching operations like a hawk and violations/warning letters are up. Specifically, among other issues, ATC is getting tired of baby sitting. Keep your nose clean out there. There have been a lot of problems with the combo of a low time fo and a brand new ca with little experience him/herself.

I agree that the individual makes a huge difference. But if you and your buds are so hot (not saying that you're not) WHAT THE H*** ARE YOU DOING STILL WORKING FOR ORNSTEIN????

Why are you willing to put up with that crap? Maybe the dash is isolated from the rest of the mess now (I recall a high CANX rate on dash flights), but you still have horrible work rules! Are you going to stick up for yourself next month? If you're going to defend mesa, you'd better be ready to burn it down.

Another question...

APC reports the most junior jet captain at Mesa was hired Nov 2004. Almost 3 years to upgrade to captain. That seems like a long time for a company that is regarded as a substandard employer. Consider that airlines such as Skywest and Expressjet, who are viewed as being much more pilot-friendly, are advertising upgrades in the 1-2 year range.

Any insight on this phenomenon?

Rickair-


I refuse to get into another arguement with you over mesa, as they lead no where.

Of course we are going to fight for a lot of changes next month.

Two words... NASA FORM

I know a guy that has over 6000hrs and his wife still won't let him fly his C210 by himself. Rich beyond all means but no matter how much I get on his case I've never seen him do a weight and balance or check the oil. I know it's hard to believe some are like that but then again people spend 2/3rds of their life driving a car and still miss the red glowing CHECK ENGINE light.