Would like to hear your thoughts on this...
 

Because of the way the regionals are hiring, I know a couple of low time pilots that didn't choose the CFI path and have chosen to go to regionals that have lower minimums (sacrificing pay, QOL, domicile) instead of waiting to go to there regional of choice because this way they can get the 121 experience, training, turbine time...etc. Then re-applying to their prefered regional 12-24 months later (which had/do have higher minimums/standards). Hoping that gives them the edge to get hired at their 1st choice.

Is this common/looked down upon/hard to do/recommended?????

**I do understand that most on APC will probably just say get ur CFI and do the CFI thing......this is noted**

thanks

How else would Mesa stay in business?

This behavior is one of the (primary) reasons pay and working conditions are deteriorating in this business. Personally, I'd say yes.

Just remember.. it may be the "quick and easy" route now... but if something were to happen to the industry again, and you and/or your friends would be stuck at this crappy company with poor pay, poor work rules, and an even poorer QOL. Is it worth it the chance? I'd say no.


And not everyone can pass a major's interview to get into the "promised land".

Other 121 carriers like guys with 121 time and transport cat. time. It will make it easier to get on at a "prefered regional," but with the way things are going at most regionals that would be a stupid move. After 12-24 months at a lot of regionals you will be able to upgrade and get your 121 PIC time. Why leave and start all over again? Get the PIC time and move on. 3 to 4 years at a regional or 6 years?
My 2 cents

If you can go to a regional with 300hrs or whatever, go for it. You may catch a lot of flack on here but you'll basically be skipping a step. Getting valuable time, making at least as much as you could flight instructing (maybe not much more), and if you don't like the company, it wouldn't take long to build the required time for a "better" regional. That being said, you'd really need to work hard to make it through training, and most importantly you do not want to be a burden to the captains on the road.

Good Luck.

BTW, flight instructing was fun, however you have a pretty cool opportunity that not many of us had five years ago.

Not sure I agree. That's like asking what came first? The chicken or the egg? Do pilots leave because the pay and conditions are are crap, or are we causing these conditions? Historically, pay and schedules at the regionals have always been crap. It was always a stepping stone and people knew it . That's why you didn't hear as much complaining. These days, because of the downturn over the last five or six years, the regionals are full of "lifers" and they want to turn their job into something they can retire from comfortably. Probably not going to happen, thus all the complaining. Add to that all the new guys who want to fit in with everyone else and you've got nothing but a bunch of miserable people. I see it everyday.

You make a good point.

However, when pilots with no experience as professional aviators are willing to work for rock bottom wages and the worst working conditions in the industry, it sends the wrong message to management. How can efforts to improve working conditions (across the board) be fruitful when this circumstance exists?

Todays environment for CFIs is vastly different than it was 5 years ago. There are plenty of flight instructing jobs out there that pay more than 1st year FO pay. Some of them are even willing to contribute to housing expenses.

Thus perpetuating the vicious cycle.....

So your telling me that someone struggling to get into the industry should suffer because of the actions of those that have come before? I don't feel as though it'd be his fault, and shouldn't be his burden.

I believe there have always been lifers at the regionals. My first time in this biz I worked for AE ( Nashville flavour ) and they had acquired Command Airways... there were guys THEN who had many many years with Command / AE and had NO desire or reason in their mind to move to a so called major airline. The fact of the matter is this segment of the industry is here to stay and yes there will be a segment which desires to stay here for the flying career and if along the way they can make a decent wage with good QOL and if that means pushing scope on this end that is their focus. NOT everyone who now flies for a regional/jet airline wants to or can get hired at Legacy carriers or the likes of UPS/FEDEX. I certainly dont hold it against them because their view doesnt jive with others at this level.

Fact of the matter is we have different desires from within our own pilot ranks. BOTH have valid concerns and needs. Personally I think both can be fulfilled.

Don't know if you're really skipping a step. Won't you be a little short on the PIC requirement for an ATP when the time comes? At the very least the 300 hour guy is gonna be short on PIC skills.

To be fair, it really is a gamble. The 300 hour might make it through training which is great (just don't f*#K it up when you get to the line. Those are real live people in the back paying your pay check). But I imagine failing out of a 121 program at that stage in your career is a serious black mark when it comes time to apply some place else.

Short of all the airlines getting together and raising ticket prices, in my opinion it cannot be fixed in such a cut throat industry. It is what it is, and that's the way it will be, or something like that.

thanks for responses everyone

Very well said. I'm 27 and thinking about being a lifer at SKW. If you know the right people and can do other things like sim, you can make a very nice living. We all want different things. There was a company email I got talking about a EMB CA who was retiring, 20 something years flying the EMB!!

illinipilot, i am just curious, did you graduate from U of I with a degree in Aviation Human Factors, i did in May and now i am CFIing in phoenix and in about 3 months will pass the 1000 and 100. just to let you know if you want to CFI here, i am averaging 120 hours and month (just got Multi students) and it is the exact same fleet as U of I. Plus they will give you two free CFI ratings if you work for them.

That's a good point about P.I.C. time for a ATP. I'd love to have a serious conversation about it but I don't even know how much you need.... More importantly two and a half years later I finally have 10 post and can pm people. Super excited.

Raising the bar at the regionals benefits both of these groups: the lifers get a job they can comfortably stay at and the fact that the regionals get more expensive prompts mainline to take back some of the flying they've outsourced, creating more mainline jobs for those who want to go to a major. Everybody wins - except for the people who don't want to put in time as a flight instructor. I think that's why they're looked on with a bit of suspicion: they're the only ones really benefiting from the current situation.

As far as the regionals always being a stepping stone: Yeah, you used to fly a 19 seat turboprop as a stepping stone to getting hired at a major to fly a 100 seat jet. It's a whole new ballgame with regionals flying 50-90 seat jets, and for regional pay and working conditions to remain as depressed as they were in the old days is inexcusable.

Thought I'd chime in as an extreme newbie.

I'm just finishing up OE at Pinnacle, and all I can say to those who get to skip the CFI step is that I'm jealous. I gained a lot of valuable experience as a CFI, and even had some fun along the way. I never wanted to do it to begin with though. If I had the opportunity to go immediately to the regionals, I certainly would have.

As far as QOL @ the regionals, maybe I'm not 'old' enough to speak up...but I will anyway. It has always been, and will always be management's job to try and pay as little as possible...while it has always been and will always be labor's job to try to get paid as much as possible. It all comes down to the strength of your position when it comes time to negotiate a contract. If there's aways a pool of pilots who suffer from some degree of SJS, mgmt will always be able to pay peanuts. I won't exclude myself from the ranks of the SJS folk. I know it is looked down upon to the extreme, but why else would people actually work for companies that pay what the regionals do...most of us are trading QOL for QOT (quality of TIME). I almost feel dirty for typing it, but it is the truth as I see it.

Turbine time is turbine time, it doesn't matter. Don't believe me? Ask the hundreds of people who never touched a jet until FedEx, or Delta, NWA, etc...

I don't know about everyone elses situation, but to me it didn't make any sense to go to any regional other than my first choice until I had enough time to get there. I did have several friends do the whole "smaller regional to get into the first choice" and low and behold...we all ended up where we wanted to be at with the regionals we wanted within about 4 months of each other. The difference was I made twice as much money and was home every night as a CFI. But, it's not for everyone.

Amen to that.

#1
Actually, coming to Mesa and then leaving in 12 months hurts more than helps the situation here. The training costs incurred are a lot higher than what is recovered by low first-year pay...

#2
I can't understand the thinking here- if you want to flight instruct, then do it. Don't instruct if you are going to suck at it and have your thoughts on just time building. That is unethical to your paying customer-student.

Why would going straight from a CMEL to the right seat of an airliner cause the industry to slide downward into a never ending cycle of low pay??? That makes no sense. Taking the argument in the reverse, by flight instructing before coming to an airline you cause instructor pay to spiral downward in a never ending cycle...

I don't get it.

I agree. I did the same thing and didn't leave for the regionals until it was for a place I wanted to go (XJT). Had a lot of friends from CFIing who jumped at the first thing to come along and they are now either here at XJT 6-12 months behind me on the seniority list or at another "top level" regional, again 6-12 months behind the guys who waited a couple months to go there in the first place. Or they are miserable while they stick it out at some of the crummier regionals out there. To each his own.

I can't agree here...Hired on with Trans States at 500TT, built another 200 in the Jet over two months and another 100 in Cubs and Champs on my days off. Came to SkyWest after two months on the line and got hired at 802TT.

I was ahead of all my buddies at Trans States, and I'm ahead of all my buddies thinking of SkyWest. Like most things in life - it all depends upon your situation. There's no "Golden, rule-of-thumb" here!

the best thing to be now is a flight instructor. the demand is high for instructor most 141 college offer free tuition now. look at me i actually turn down a 121 job with only 250 hours just to go back to school. My friend are looking at me like I'm crazy but in the long run it will pay off.

Sounds like a hell of deal! Go back to college, CFI, work on your MBA on the side, make as much as you would at a regional while you CFI and kiss the 4am wake up calls GOODBYE!!!

Cfii
 

As a CFII/MEI I feel the need to chime in as well. When you graduate with your CFI license and after the 6- 8 hour Oral and 2-3 hour flight you think you know everything in the FAR/AIM, but until you go to teach your knowledge to someone who has no experience in aviation is when you start to really learn an know what you are talking about. And believe me, flying IFR get really real when you take your student in the clouds the their first time and you realize that in reality you are the on at the controls cause they have the leans and are worthless (because they are just now learning) and cant really help you.

In a way being a CFII or a part 135 cargo pilot is a way of paying your dues and really learning how to become a good safe pilot. I can honestly say that I am greatful for teaching and really learning and knowing my stuff before I go into a regional airline where I have 50+ lives in my hands. That is alot of responsibility. When you are a CFII you can make mistakes and learn form them, but as an FO you are not allowed to have bad days or make mistakes. Yes the captain is there, but he doesnt want to fly with someone who he constantly has to watch and correct because they didnt take the time to get that knowledge behind them.

So I urge you to take the time and get that 700 or more hours of flight time in and go to a place where you will be happy. Being a flight instructor is respectable and very rewarding when your first student solo's and passes their first checkride. With out CFII's we all wouldn't be where we are today and I promise you that it will be well worth it!

You don't have to trade QOL for quality of time man, that what is wrong with a lot of these crappy companies/contracts out there---people think like this. There are respectable regionals out there that offer a decent compensation package, benefits, etc. You just have to not sell yourself out. At any rate---it beats the good old days at BG :)

I feel sorry for the the low timer's who go to ATP for 6 month and jump right into the airlines without any college degree. with this industry you never know what could happen the next day and you always need something to fall back on.

I rather fly with a 1000TT FO that did the CFI thing than a 500TT wonder. At least the cfi can track a vor radial.

AND fly without a FD or an autopilot

I can see where you're coming from with that. I actually chose Pinnacle following advise from a friend with many years in the business. He basically said to work for the crappiest company that I wouldn't mind getting stuck at. The idea being people will constantly be leaving, equating to faster seniority and faster upgrades. My fear with a "respectable regional" was long reserves, slow upgrades, etc. Right now that doesn't seem like an issue, but who knows what tomorrow will bring!!

And thanks to those who can respect 1000TT. :)

Is your friends name Matt White?

No...Larry Rhodes...works for JB.

Funny you mention Matt though...I ran into him in ops Tuesday!!