Low Minimum Question
 

I've spent the last few days reading many well-articulated debates on the merits of "building time/experience" vs. "jumping" to a regional ASAP. I don't think the issue will ever be satisfactorily resolved.

I will add this for what it's worth: the value of instructing is universal. Whether you fly an aircraft or dig a ditch, you will always learn more about your vocation and become more proficient at it by teaching someone else how to do it well. To keep it, you must give it away. That is a fact above debate.

Having preached that little nugget of wisdom I would like some feedback on the issue in a presumably different context. I plan to start my training when my wife finishes nursing school. Exactly when that is isn't as important as the fact that I will be 38, possibly 39, when I get started. I would like to go through an FBO and take some time with it and finance it as I go. I'd also like to spend time honing my craft as an instructor, but I can't shake the notion that time is not my ally in this situation.

So which person has the better chance at getting hired at a regional (or anywhere, for that matter)?
a) A 40 year-old man with 250TT/25ME (approximate times)
b) A 42-44 year old man with >1000 TT
c) Neither. Stay in advertising and sweep away the chards of your broken dreams old man.
d) Anyone can get hired at a regional regardless of age.

There's no reason not to do both. A lot of the obscenely low minimums offered by regionals are for pilots with advanced training, whether that means going through an ATP-esque program or getting an aviation degree a University. Basically they're not looking for your knowledge level, they're looking for the fact that when you're put in a fast-paced learning environment, you can cope, survive, and succeed. While there certainly are people who are hired from outside of said venues, I wouldn't call them the majority.

Now, as I said, why not do both? There's no penalty to getting your commercial multi, trying to get a job while starting to work on your CFI. If you get a call, no harm done (minus maybe paying for a couple extra hours). If you don't get a call, continue getting your CFI, take the ride, start instructing and building time, meanwhile updating your resume with the airlines every couple hundred hours or so.

olbo, just out of curiosity what are your ultimate goals?

I'm not the type of person to say "give up on the dreams" As i think you'd be happeir retiring from this job at 60 knowing that you tried, and even if you don't decide to stick it out that long, you will have known that you did it briefly which could be worthwhile also. In your current situation, i don't know if you plan on going to the majors or not. At your current age, you have 21 years left, if you get out as quickly as possible say 40-41 and have 250 hrs, you then get on with said regional (if minimums are still 250/25....might be lower for all we know) you'll be looking at a couple years to be able to upgrade (plus you'll have to plan it out to have enough PIC time for your ATP). by this time, you'll be 43, not to bad, so you're now looking to gain that 1000 TPIC, after getting that it's been another year or two, so you're looking at 45 or so. Which will still get you 15 years at a major if you can make it out on time....Thats all of course full of big IF's, so hopefully everything would fall into place.

If the majors aren't your real concern, you'd probalby do better (depdending on what the industry is looking like) to just instruct, get that 1000 TT or so, then move onto a regional that you wouldn't mind working at. Have a nice 20 year career there, retire (proably flying an A320 for a regional) and enjoy every minute of it. Best of luck.

It's quite possible that I'm wrong, but I can't think of any regionals flying A320s, and I don't see scope clauses relaxing to the point where >150seat jets are regional material.

I knew a guy who had over 2000 hours, had an ATP, and over 500 hours of turbine time (king air). He was 44 and took a job at Pinnacle because he always wanted to fly an airliner. He left a very lucrative career to do so.

If I were in your shoes, I might try to fly on the side, and continue your career. Maybe you could fly a bizjet someday? If airline flying is really your dream, go for it. I would still say build up enough time and go to a place that you would be happy to retire at, just in case.
Good luck and blue skies!

It was a joke man. C'mon!

Under the current scope environment, there is no way in heck that regionals will fly narrowbodies. However, a major industry catastrophy resulting in another round of BKs might well lead to that.

First off, I hope your retirement is FULLY funded. If not, you may want to seriously reconsider because most pilots don't have retirements anymore, and it's hard to stock the 401k on $1200/month. A wife with a good job doesn't count...your divorce risk will be high going forward. If you have that covered...

Anyone can get hired at a regional. If you intend to stay at a regional, then you would probably want to stay home and CFI locally (preserving your QOL) until you can get hired at a non-bottom feeder regional. Any regional hiring 250 hour pilots is NOT a place you want to work at for long (or at all).

If you want to move on to the majors, you will need to look for a quicker upgrade, but there are several good regionals which currently offer this.

At your age, you probably do want to work at a better regional...if you get stuck there (intentionally or otherwise) your life will not be a living hell.

The good news for you is that the retirement age will get raised to 65 in the near future...if you stay healthy you could fly for 25 years.

My vote is on (b)...get that TT up and jump aboard a respectable Regional where you'll be happy.

But my other .02 is to work on the side while you're instructing...unless, of course, your wife can support the family on her income alone - that's a bonus!

Keep us posted :-)

Thanks a million, once again, for your feedback.

Ultimately, I can't do any commercial flying until I get my PPL, so I'll start there and see what the PIC in the sky has in store for Ol' Bob. Wish me luck!

And other positive post from our buddy Skyhigh! Thanks for the continued pessimism brother!

To think I wasted all that money on my Commercial, CFI's and ATP to do some Comercial Flying when I could have been using My PPL:D

Just Ignore SkyHigh. He got burnt once, but I bet He still wants in. Why else would he keep lurking on this site.

To you're original post, Just do it. And I would sugest the FBO route. It works better with both a part time or Full time ( if it's a big enough FBO) training comitment. FBO's also promote connections and this buisness is all about who you know, not what you know. A certificate and degree from a big pilot mill will only get you so far. And you won't owe $100K to boot.

I'm 42 and have been instruction for 6 years part time and enjoy it. I've been offered a few jobs, but My Family is not in a financial position where I could dump the good Day job with benifits and fly for a regional, 135, etc,etc. I'm tempted, but I have to think of the Family first. I'm getting enough flying in now to keep my aviation substance adiction problem under control for now.

If things get better in the next couple of years,(wife goes back to work) I'm thinking Fracs. The QOL is much better for somone like me.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

As someone that has defended you and your posts in the past (everyone needs to see the other side of the coin)...this post doesn't really make a point other than to make you look like a douchebag. Pretty weak.

I deleted skyhigh's sarcastic post though Sky has some valuable things to bring to this site.

The admins want this site to be educational, supportive, positive, and respectful. Sarcastic posts with no meaningful dialouge have no place here. They serve no useful puropse. They start flame wars and tick people off for no good reason.

Sometimes aviation can be an ugly business, as Skyhigh loves to point out. Let's keep the dialouge educational and leave the negative sarcasim left unsaid.

If people feel the need to vent by posting negative sarcasim all the time, please do it somewhere else.

Truth
 

I wrote nothing short of the truth and nothing derogatory. If the facts offend people it it not my fault. I write the news not make it.


SkyHigh

No absolutely not. I for one am not going to allow you to be that dismissive about what you wrote (and write). So you spent all those years in the industry and paid your dues. So did ALOT of others who still are and aren't nearly as bitter and resentful as you. Just stop whining like a liberal democrat EVERY TIME someone asks for some positive feedback. Its all doom and gloom with you, man. I have to agree with why your post was deleted because you bring NOTHING to the table but a load of crying and sarcasm. Enough. This original poster needs some serious positive feedback (I say GO FOR IT olbob629), not discouragement from some crusty old former pilot who now that he makes a ton of money elsewhere needs to bag on the profession at every turn. Grow up mack.

As I said before, I like having you around. Some of your posts have contained some valuable information about life after flying if it doesn't work out. However, your post provided no information, stated no facts, and was no more than a charged up sarcastic response to someone asking for help. I don't agree with it getting pulled down, but I'm not a moderator. At the same time, I thought your post was the most worthless one I've ever seen from you (and almost from anyone else), so I can't really blame them.

I know of several gentlemen hired at the airline where I'm training who were over 40 with times under 1000 hours. I wouldn't worry about your age. It seems airlines are interested in getting a mixed group of people with different experiences, skills, and abilities. Being older just makes you a slightly different candidate which could even make you more attractive to them. Apply when you feel ready and meet the minimum requirements (those two things may not come at the same time).

You should pursue whatever you want to...whether that's flying airliners or doing anything else. Just make sure you research regional airlines or anywhere you might want to work to make sure it's the right move for you. Best of luck!!!

I vote B. Head to some place respectable.

Awwwww, someone deleted Skyhigh's post? ***? I needed my dose of sugar-coated-military, and anti-airline pessimism today.

Irony
 

I was merely pointing out the irony and futile endeavor aviation is due to the stated high sacrifices made to get a job that pays less than that of a convenience store clerk.

I think that the parallel I made was valid and of importance to someone who hadn't made that connection yet. I merely presented the facts in accurate terms. The fact that some found it offensive says more about the reader than of what I wrote.

Perhaps it is better to remain in a state of denial?

Skyhigh

"to get a job that pays less than that of a convenience store clerk."

Gross exaggeration.


"I merely presented the facts in accurate terms."

Facts in your mind don't really make them facts. You prove on a daily basis that one guys fact is the next guys fallacy.

"The fact that some found it offensive says more about the reader than of what I wrote"

The post was deleted because it contained nothing of use. It was a sarcastic retort with no goal other than to flame. You can do better, Sky, like the post above this one.

"Perhaps it is better to remain in a state of denial?"

I think you are. Some people want to fly and some people find the costs worth it. Just cause you don't doesn't make it "a fact" that flying for a living is a poor choice for all.....

Hopefully my man Sky hasn't killed this thread, because I am just looking for a little input if you all don't mind. Right now I am sitting on 872TT/12multi. By November that multi should be up to around 60 being; I bought 40 some hours at the local FBO. I have been working and surviving private pilot students for about a year now. The job is fun, but doesn't quite pay the bills.(My parents illustrate this point quite often) Just wondering what a low timer like myself should do to be marketable to the regionals? Which regionals I realistically might be marketable to once I have 1000/60? Any regionals that might kick some money your way for getting me onboard?(Share the wealth) :) Should I splurge on the CRJ/any regional transition course? Please no "get your CFII or MEI" unless the regionals just want to see it on paper, because there is no desire in my part of the globe for instrument ratings or the planes to give multi-engine instruction at the fbo I work.
On a side note, I must say that it was my honor to have given Mr. Skyhigh his Biennial Flight Review. Good times!! I feel like I have a stronger desire to be a pilot after his verbal onslaught againtst the profession. He really isn't that bad, but without hearing his voice and instead just reading poo flung at the industry you may not like him. Good luck everyone and Blue Skies to all!

"I must say that it was my honor to have given Mr. Skyhigh his Biennial Flight Review."

You flew that thing after I did a high speed pass under the Vantage bridge? I guess I should have said something to Sky about that.....

Just kidding. It's a good running machine and he got it at a great price.

"Any regionals that might kick some money your way for getting me onboard?"

Naw, it doesn't work that way, yet, as far as I know. I've heard of signing bonuses but they go to the guy who recruits you or give them to people with previous advanced experience.

If you're at 1000/60, you are pretty close to 1200, at which point you'd be a shoe in for 135 freight, like Amflight. Also, at 1000/60, I'd bet there are some regionals you could get on at. Even less time than that. You're new, I hope you can use the search function. I'd spend some time at the regional fourms as they are often talking about hiring mins and who's hiring.

I'd say no reason to do an RJ course. They are a waste of time, first of all, designed to get you in the door with very low quals. You already have enough time for me to say you shouldn't bother with that.

Where do you instruct out of?

You're right.

It should read: to get a job that pays FAR less than that of a convenience store clerk. :D

Apologies to all the convenience store clerks out there.

"You flew that thing after I did a high speed pass under the Vantage bridge? I guess I should have said something to Sky about that....."

If you feel that it was safe enough to do a high speed pass under the Vantage bridge, I guess I don't feel bad about all the spins and crazy ish Sky's brother put me through on his Biennial. :D

Where do you instruct out of?

Yakima, WA McCormick's

Oh and before I forget thanks for the input de727ups! I just don't know jack and don't want to jump to the regionals too early and especially not too late to get seniority!!

What do they have for a twin, there? What are they charging you? You say they don't do any ME instruction but they still have a twin? Must be for charters.

1000/60 will open alot of regional doors for you. Practically everyone will interview at those times, except maybe SkyWest, Eagle, XJT.....

Actually the twin that I bought some block time in is the competition's Duchess. The cost for a block of 10 hours was $175 plus tax. I wish I could do multi-engine instruction in the plane, but I work for McCormick Air Center and Noland Decoto Flying Service owns the plane.:(

Hey guys, do you think Comm. Multi and CFI with 1000/60 with no regional transition course has a shot though with Mesaba, ASA, or TSA. I know what the hiring minimums are as stated on this website, but it seems like the ATP applicants with the CRJ course would have an advantage over a cessna 172 captain like myself.

I think that there is demand enough that they need both types of applicants. If the stated mins are true i think a 172 capt with 1000/60 should be just fine at any of those places.

Cessna 172's have captains?

My airline hired a 47 year old, not all that uncommon at all. The decision to what airline you go to is an extremely important one in my opinion. Depending on how upgrade times ebb and flow over the years, you may find that whatever regional you hop on with, becomes your career airline. Pick wisely, as you may be unhappy with going with the first carrier at 250 TT / 25 ME that you can get into.

Alright Herc so I guess I built the Cessna 172 captain thing up a bit. I am also the master of my parents basement, Grand Master of the T.V. remote. (when my dad is not around) Just making the meaningless sound meaningful to prepare for my career as a regional FO. There in the right seat of something bigger than a C-172 I will be the transporter of souls at $19 per hour. Gotta keep the self-esteeme up somehow!

Thanks for the vote of confidence mccube5 "Keep on Keepin On!"

Where did you get your ratings, Great Dane? CWU?

Yes, I did indeed get my ratings from CWU, and now you have intrigued me as to why you ask good sir?

Got a student pulling me out the door have a dandy of a day!

I grew up in Wenatchee and live in Spokane. Just wondering where you flew at. You have enough posts now that you should be able to PM, but I don't see a PM link for you. Send me an email when you get the chance. It's my screen name at hotmail.