MESA's Pilot Program (Uh Oh!)
10-11-2007, 07:19 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 170 babysitter
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by rickair7777
As a junior FO at mesa, I flew with a number of MAPD CA's...all of them were sharp individuals. Towards the end, I started to see some not-so-sharp CA's coming on line. As mesa's needs have increased, and the wisdom of spending 2 years and $80K to get a job there has become more and more doubtful, the MAPD output has become, shall we say, inconsistent. I hang out with several mesa CA's on a regular basis...ask one of them if you want an earful on that subject.
I do believe that CFI experience is really good stuff, especially for a younger person, but the only transition-academy types who I really have a problem with are the ones who say things like this: " I didn't want to CFI because I don't really like dealing with people" These folks are NOT like the majority of other airline pilots, and they don't make good CA's.
I do believe that CFI experience is really good stuff, especially for a younger person, but the only transition-academy types who I really have a problem with are the ones who say things like this: " I didn't want to CFI because I don't really like dealing with people" These folks are NOT like the majority of other airline pilots, and they don't make good CA's.
10-11-2007, 08:31 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"nobody seems to fuss when people pay for type ratings, so why should this be any different"
People who pay for a 737 type are guys with 1000 TPIC looking to move on. It's a whole different thing from 300 hour PFJing.
As far as all things being equal "as long as you pass the airlines training". You can't tell me that an airline that is a bottom feeder in so many ways isn't a bottom feeder when it comes to MAPD? Do they screen and train to a US military level? I don't believe getting through ground school and IOE makes a 300 hour guy competent to be a jet airline pilot just because he "passed the training".
The training world and real life are just two different things. The guy with more experience in the real world will bring a higher standard to the cockpit. It's a standard I'd rather see the bar raised to rather than see how low the bar can go. Besides that, I'll never be a fan of "airline pilot" being an entry level job, for a lot of reasons.
So, you can call me a Grandpa, or Yoda, or whatever else you like, but you'll never convince me that it's a good thing for an airline to have a PFJ program that puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an airline passenger jet that says "United" on the side of it.
And I'm by no means bashing Mesa pilots. One of my best buddies was a checkairman there (with some good MAPD stories) and I helped him get on at UPS a few years ago.
People who pay for a 737 type are guys with 1000 TPIC looking to move on. It's a whole different thing from 300 hour PFJing.
As far as all things being equal "as long as you pass the airlines training". You can't tell me that an airline that is a bottom feeder in so many ways isn't a bottom feeder when it comes to MAPD? Do they screen and train to a US military level? I don't believe getting through ground school and IOE makes a 300 hour guy competent to be a jet airline pilot just because he "passed the training".
The training world and real life are just two different things. The guy with more experience in the real world will bring a higher standard to the cockpit. It's a standard I'd rather see the bar raised to rather than see how low the bar can go. Besides that, I'll never be a fan of "airline pilot" being an entry level job, for a lot of reasons.
So, you can call me a Grandpa, or Yoda, or whatever else you like, but you'll never convince me that it's a good thing for an airline to have a PFJ program that puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an airline passenger jet that says "United" on the side of it.
And I'm by no means bashing Mesa pilots. One of my best buddies was a checkairman there (with some good MAPD stories) and I helped him get on at UPS a few years ago.
10-11-2007, 08:40 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 170 babysitter
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by de727ups
"nobody seems to fuss when people pay for type ratings, so why should this be any different"
People who pay for a 737 type are guys with 1000 TPIC looking to move on. It's a whole different thing from 300 hour PFJing.
As far as all things being equal "as long as you pass the airlines training". You can't tell me that an airline that is a bottom feeder in so many ways isn't a bottom feeder when it comes to MAPD? Do they screen and train to a US military level? I don't believe getting through ground school and IOE makes a 300 hour guy competent to be a jet airline pilot just because he "passed the training".
The training world and real life are just two different things. The guy with more experience in the real world will bring a higher standard to the cockpit. It's a standard I'd rather see the bar raised to rather than see how low the bar can go. Besides that, I'll never be a fan of "airline pilot" being an entry level job, for a lot of reasons.
So, you can call me a Grandpa, or Yoda, or whatever else you like, but you'll never convince me that it's a good thing for an airline to have a PFJ program that puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an airline passenger jet that says "United" on the side of it.
And I'm by no means bashing Mesa pilots. One of my best buddies was a checkairman there (with some good MAPD stories) and I helped him get on at UPS a few years ago.
People who pay for a 737 type are guys with 1000 TPIC looking to move on. It's a whole different thing from 300 hour PFJing.
As far as all things being equal "as long as you pass the airlines training". You can't tell me that an airline that is a bottom feeder in so many ways isn't a bottom feeder when it comes to MAPD? Do they screen and train to a US military level? I don't believe getting through ground school and IOE makes a 300 hour guy competent to be a jet airline pilot just because he "passed the training".
The training world and real life are just two different things. The guy with more experience in the real world will bring a higher standard to the cockpit. It's a standard I'd rather see the bar raised to rather than see how low the bar can go. Besides that, I'll never be a fan of "airline pilot" being an entry level job, for a lot of reasons.
So, you can call me a Grandpa, or Yoda, or whatever else you like, but you'll never convince me that it's a good thing for an airline to have a PFJ program that puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an airline passenger jet that says "United" on the side of it.
And I'm by no means bashing Mesa pilots. One of my best buddies was a checkairman there (with some good MAPD stories) and I helped him get on at UPS a few years ago.
Thats why they call him/her the captain and PIC
10-11-2007, 06:10 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CRJ left
Posts: 248
I have no problem with the Mesa pilot group in general (other than the fact they undercut most of the industry, but that's another story for another thread...).
I was referring to individuals willing to pay-for-playing. Whether it means buying turbine time on the right seat of a 135 outfit, or going to MAPD/JetU or other deplorable buy-a-jet-job schools.
I was referring to individuals willing to pay-for-playing. Whether it means buying turbine time on the right seat of a 135 outfit, or going to MAPD/JetU or other deplorable buy-a-jet-job schools.
10-11-2007, 06:28 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CRJ left
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by ghilis101
what is your definition of earning your job?
Originally Posted by ghilis101
if they cant fly an airplane, the training program will weed them out.
Not to mention the number of pilots who "fall through the cracks" in initial training. Don't tell me you've never flown with one...
Lastly.... do you really think that the current regional pilot shortage has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the initial training testing standards...
There is more to being a pilot than passing a regional PC ride, IMHO.
10-11-2007, 06:51 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 170 babysitter
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by palgia841
Not paying for it (directly or indirectly).
How naive. You speak like a regional 121 initial training is the "be all and end all" in aviation training and checking. Lets be honest.... flying an rj with autopilot on at 600' is not exactly a great demonstration of airmanship (and a "hand-flown" ILS with FD isn't much either).
Not to mention the number of pilots who "fall through the cracks" in initial training. Don't tell me you've never flown with one...
Lastly.... do you really think that the current regional pilot shortage has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the initial training testing standards...
There is more to being a pilot than passing a regional PC ride, IMHO.
How naive. You speak like a regional 121 initial training is the "be all and end all" in aviation training and checking. Lets be honest.... flying an rj with autopilot on at 600' is not exactly a great demonstration of airmanship (and a "hand-flown" ILS with FD isn't much either).
Not to mention the number of pilots who "fall through the cracks" in initial training. Don't tell me you've never flown with one...
Lastly.... do you really think that the current regional pilot shortage has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the initial training testing standards...
There is more to being a pilot than passing a regional PC ride, IMHO.
10-11-2007, 08:28 PM
#29
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Originally Posted by palgia841
Not paying for it (directly or indirectly).
How naive. You speak like a regional 121 initial training is the "be all and end all" in aviation training and checking. Lets be honest.... flying an rj with autopilot on at 600' is not exactly a great demonstration of airmanship (and a "hand-flown" ILS with FD isn't much either).
Not to mention the number of pilots who "fall through the cracks" in initial training. Don't tell me you've never flown with one...
Lastly.... do you really think that the current regional pilot shortage has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the initial training testing standards...
There is more to being a pilot than passing a regional PC ride, IMHO.
How naive. You speak like a regional 121 initial training is the "be all and end all" in aviation training and checking. Lets be honest.... flying an rj with autopilot on at 600' is not exactly a great demonstration of airmanship (and a "hand-flown" ILS with FD isn't much either).
Not to mention the number of pilots who "fall through the cracks" in initial training. Don't tell me you've never flown with one...
Lastly.... do you really think that the current regional pilot shortage has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the initial training testing standards...
There is more to being a pilot than passing a regional PC ride, IMHO.
ok so weve established under your definition of being a pilot that paying for training is an inferior method. and if passing a 121 checkride to ATP STANDARDS doesnt demonstrate airmanship then what does? Do you want them to barrel roll a Cessna 172? passing a sim checkride is not a verbal checkout, you still have to do V1 cuts, precision and non precision approaches, and everything else. these people arent training to fly formations, or do precision aerobatics. im still not getting your point.
the current shortage doesnt mean there arent training failures, ask sim instructors at mesa, TSA, and eagle about that.
10-11-2007, 09:02 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CRJ left
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by ghilis101
ok so weve established under your definition of being a pilot that paying for training is an inferior method.
Originally Posted by ghilis101
the current shortage doesnt mean there arent training failures, ask sim instructors at mesa, TSA, and eagle about that.
Talk to some of their captains if you want to know more about the quality of their new-hires coming from MAPD.
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