To major in aviation, or not to major in aviation?
 

After reading through this board, it seems that a number of you are currently majoring in aviation, or have majored in aviation.

I've been told by some pilots not to major in aviation. The reason being, if you were to lose your medical, get furloughed, etc., you will have a hard time finding a job outside of aviation.

On the other hand, I have been told by some pilots that a degree is a degree, and it basically is nothing more than a piece of paper showing a possible employer that you have the ability to work toward, and obtain a goal over a given amount of time. I've even had some pilots recommend that I major in aviation to get my degree and ratings all in one.

I am currently not majoring in aviation, but live only a few hours away from a college that has a really good aviation program. My sister will be transferring to this college for her major soon, and I have been thinking of following her, and switching to aviation.

Although an aviation degree is not recommended for the reasons stated earlier, I think those reason can go for other jobs as well. People in the medical field can lose their license and ability to practice, etc. Is there anything wrong with majoring in aviation, and later on, down the road, getting a real-estate license on the side, or something like that as backup?

For those of you who are majoring in aviation, or have, if you would chime in, I would appreciate it.

-Thanks.

I've got a B.S. in Engineering from State and a B.S. in Aeronautics (major in commercial aviation) from another school i really whish I would have gotten a math or computer science as my second major. A major in aviation is just a degree the universities offer to justify having the flight school as a 4 year program. My advice get some kind of science degree, ie engineering, computer science, etc, something you can fall back on and something you can go to graduate school on if the oppurtunity and need should arise.

That being said, there are still good classes in aviation you can take and minor in "professional flight", like transport category systems, aviation law, etc. You most likely have to take the associated ground school(s) with whatever flight course you are taking, ie IFR regs for your instrument course.

Good luck, and just out of curiosity what school are you going to?

degree is a degree
 

You said it best at first. A degree is a degree. It really doesn't matter what you major in. If a company sees that you are a hard worker, can put your mind to something and actually do it that is all they want. Obviously some jobs require a major in that field (ie: medicine) but you can learn aviation on the side. I have my BS in Aviation Flight Operations and I wish I would have got my degree in business and flew on the side so I would have something to fall back on in case the unthinkable happens. Also, you will be a more well rounded person. You will have knowledge on different aspects of the business instead of just driving the bus.

I am happy with my degree in flight ops, I am 22 and working for a regional with low time and can award that to my degree and school. Aviation degrees are very expensive. You are looking at paying around 120-150 thousand when you could have another degree (or 2 or 3) and fly and not pay that much.

Both decisions are a good way to go. You have to weigh the options on what you want to do.

Hope this helps

Hawaii

No Aviation Degree !!
 

I can tell you first hand about the twisted look that the interviewer gets when they ask about your aviation degree. It is totally useless. Even the airlines don't have much use for it. It makes you seem limited in your interests and abilities. Get a degree in anything else. The best majors are: accounting, business administration, engineering, marketing, and then the sciences.

Its true that a degree is just a degree, but aviation is down there with art and leisure services. It's not considered a strong and useful education and it really isn't. Universities have to work to fill useless classes with fluff in order to bulk up a B.S. degree in aviation. Get a diversified education. Reach beyond your immediate desires and you will not be sorry for it when you are furloughed for the third time and have something real to fall back on. I speak from experience.

SkyHigh

I am new to using Airline Pilot Central forums. If I want to private message someone how do I do it and do I have to subscribe to an upgraded service?

airlines don't care?
 

I disagree and agree with skyhigh on a few points. I graduated with a degree in flight ops. Companies do not look at it and say that is useless right away. It depends on the school that you have received it from. If you get it from an accredited university such as Purdue, Daniel Webster, UND, FSU then it is a structured aviation program where you not only learn how to fly but learn the background behind the business. You also learn different aspects of the industry such as corporate and international ops at most schools.

A degree in aviation is not usless to say the least.

But I do agree that other degrees are as good as an aviation degree. One is not going to put you over the other is this industry. They are looking for a degree and that they can fly with you for a few days at a time.

Personally i dont think majoring in aviation is useless. I am currently at UND, and i am getting much better flight education then the people at local FBO's. I got my private from my home town, and the training was not nearly as good as it is here. As for my back up, i am minoring in something outside of aviation, just in case if i were to lose my medical. One of the mojor reason why i picked UND was that i could take classes outside of aviation, which some schools like Embry Riddle do not offer (I am not trying to sound negative towards Embry Riddle).

I went to UND as well, if its not too late dont major in aviation, skip all the Skrammy and Lovelace classes you can. Major in business or engineering and minor in professional flight. You cant go wrong.

Are you flying now? Did you get an aviation degree?

Yup flying now (DC8s) and have the coveted B.S. in Aeronautics, emphasis on the BS.

What happens when you lose your medical, then what are you gonna do with you big fancy aviation degree... absolutely nothing except teach aviation perhaps. Or I suppose you could the executive fry cook at BK.

Ask the ol' timers who majored in aviation and they will tell you that they wished they majored in something else. I majored in "flight technology" for 2 semester then decided it was a complete waste of time and money. Plus it makes you rather one dimensional, wouldn't you like to know things outside the world of aviation?? There's more out there in this world than lift, weight, thrust, and drag.

I now major in business management and I can guarantee you that when I graduate (1 week yay) I will know more aviation based information than 90% of the guys who come out of a pilot factory. Granted, I have had a lot of training from a former Air Force pilot (now the captain I fly with in the King Air), but the point still remains.

I disagree. What the hell is the point of getting an education in something you don't plan on using in your field of profession? Myself personally have decided that aviation is an all or nothing committment. It's not like if you loose your medical that you have nothing to look foward to. There are plenty of other jobs that allow your previous experience to be used in the future. In my case i majored in Professional Aeronautics and am minoring in Safety so that I have other possibilities in the FAA or the NTSB. Just my 2 cents.

Notice the only supporter of this path are those individuals currently in the assembly line at one of the factories... pity they can't see past their blinders.

Okay...First of all why are you so sure people with aviation degrees will lose thier medicals. Second, most of the old timers were involved in some sort of governement flying (NAVY, Air Force...). And finally what sort of information you are talking about that you will know more then 90% of us.
Not trying to start a fight, i just feel if i am going to aim for something (becoming an airline pilot in this case), i might as well give 110%. Grand it some companies do not care, but some companies will notice that you took some time and got an aviation degree.

For instance, they (not necessarily you) can't explain simple things that have practical purposes.


Here are some examples:

a. When can you descent below MDA/DH. Most people will give you an answer fill will umm's and ahhh; not quite knowing the answer. Maybe it's just me but I think that's a pretty important thing to know.

b. Why do you have higher IFR clearance tolerances in mountainous areas? While we are on that subject, what constitutes a mountainous area?

c. What is a VDP, why is it important, and how do you calculate it... another good question often not known.

d. How far out to start your descent and at what rate for a given A/S?

AND THE LIST GOES ON....


P.S I'm not trying to seem arrogant (even though I am coming off that way)

Sorry
 

Hey man,

Sorry to disappoint you dudes but you are both kids who haven't really tasted the dynamics of the real world yet. Universities push that BS to sell their overpriced dead end degrees. We all like to tell ourselves those lies while in school in order to justify a four year leisure tour without having to get a real education. I am sure that there will be someone who will stand out and testify that an aviation degree is great, but I can assure you that my assessment is correct. The only thing an aviation degree might qualify you for is to manage a Taco Bell. There are also universities who offer degrees in professional skiing, outdoor adventures and many other play boy ventures.

Good Luck !! We all will need it.

SkyHigh

KiloAlpha,

So what are you going to do now? Log SIC in a C90? You have to have something more then that going for you.

Also another thing you said which i agree on 100%, there is much more to the world then Lift, weight, thrust and drag. That is the problem going to an aviation college, because you have all of these guys who think they are the sh_, when in fact they have less then 200TT. Especially in present you would be foolish not to double major with something outside of aviation.

First off a King Air 90 does not require a two man crew so I am not and can not be logging SIC time.. thanks for illustrating my point about understanding important regs :cool:.

With that said, I am logging PIC every other leg; so for the record that is turbine PIC if you're keeping track. Kinda a big deal in this industry, dont worry someday you will find that out.

As far as having something better going for me, I think I am in a pretty sweet situation; especially considering I am salaried with full benefits and making more money than a FO flying an RJ; let alone a flight instructor. I have enough time to leave for a regional, but I can't because I am under contract.

Plus that little turbine PIC dealy I was telling you about. :eek:

Plus I dont have a $150,000 school loan hanging over my head for a degree with as much usefulness as one in water skiing.


** Oh yeah, one last thing, my current company is looking to buy a jet.

Okay I know the C90 is one man crew since it is less than 12500lb. Well I guess this argument is not going anywhere. I still think aviation degree will look much better then something completely irrelevant to the job. And I am not going to be $150,000 in debt, you must be thinking of Embry Riddle.

Best of luck to all

I agree we are going nowhere with this thread :D.

Also, MTOW is not the reason it does not require a crew. A B200 is over 12.5 and can also be single pilot as can some small corporate jets

Oh ooops,

by the way how did you manage to land a job flying while you are in school.

I was wrong, I just looked and a 200 MTOW is exactly 12.5. But anyway, I personally do not know the reason some aircraft are certified single pilot.



As far as school goes, it has been tough. Fortunately, I have not had to miss too many classes to go fly trips. I have Tues/Thurs classes. I spent a week in Florida for training on the King Air and it was tough to get caught up in my course work. Me being in school was of concern to my now current employer, but I assured him that my schooling would never interfere with his flight program.

Wow! You really come across as an arrogant person. From reading some of your other posts, you don't seem to know as much about the aviation industry as you think you do. So let me try to set you straight on a few things, like you “tried” to do so arrogantly with the others in this thread.

I’m guessing that you are flying part 91 so you are correct, you cannot log SIC time (especially if there has been no flight and ground training for that aircraft)

If you are flying part 135, it all depends on the type of 135 you are conducting. I'm not an aviation genius (because I have better things to do with my time than to TOTALLY immerse myself in it), but I do believe it all depends on the type of 135 that you are conducting that stipulates whether it requires a SIC. I believe if it is "scheduled" 135 then you require a SIC, if it is "non-scheduled" or "on-demand" 135 flying it does not require a SIC. I'm sure some of the current 135 guys and gals on this board can enlighten you and me on that.

However, I believe weight has nothing to do with it. A/C weight only matters in regard to needing a type rating for the aircraft, and the type cert for that A/C determines the SIC requirment. However, I believe there might be some exemptions to that, but I could be totally wrong about that. Again, maybe some of our current 135 friends could help YOU and me out here.

Someday you will find out as well. PIC turbine is not worth much to the "bigs" if the A/C does not require a type and/or it is not part 121 PIC. That I DO know about, so get a clue genius.

Again, not really worth much, since it’s in an A/C not requiring a type and is probably part 91 flying. Keep it up though. Just don't get too bummed out when you find out how worthless it is.

Now, if you manage to fly that as PIC, it could be worth something since ALL turbojet A/C require a type, but it still does not look as good as part 121 or even part 135 flying.

Have a good one!

Ya, it really does sound like your trying to justify yourself with all that you know and how great the king air is. I also remember you saying that you were only logging like 200 hours a year, that doesn't look to good to most 121 carriers because you never fly. I am not going to dog on that b/c I hardly fly myself, but I am not going to bash everyone else to make myself bigger (and I'm not bashing you by the way :)) Since you grad in a week which is awesome (im almost 2 yrs still) take that bigger twin time and apply at a regional now and stop wasting your time flying 200 hrs a year. Remember, like said above, you may have 3000 hrs Turbine PIC, but a 121 carrier will take a 121 guy with 1000 hrs turbine PIC in a heart beat before they will a 91 or 135 guy. Just food for thought, but good luck with whatever you decide to do.

KiloAlpha-

I think that you just came off a little too much "I know it all kind of statement." Me myself am just a little jeleous that you can get that much type of time at such a young time in your carear. The guys that I am flying with just brought home a Merlin III with dash 10's today as their person plane so I am excited to start learning the systems as well, but I will not be getting that much time in it (maybe 100-150 hours a year). No matter what, experience is experience in my opinion no matter how often you're flying (unless it's under 50 hours/year). Congrats on the degree.

-Nick

My advice would be to NOT major in aviation unless its in mngmnt or something. I am a UND Grad and I can tell you that I have alread seen people fall because of their degree. Many decided to get out of the industry because of how much it can suck right now and they ALL went back to school. You can still fly on the side (or even take flying classes on the side) but I would encourage you to get another education to go with it. Also...so far its been my experience "in the real world" that minors are worthless...so dont plan on that helping much at all...double major if anything. That shows that you were actually interested etc. Not just that you went 80% of the way to try to cover yourself. From what I have seen a minor is only of worth if it supports your major (ie minor in meteorology if you are going to be a aviation grad etc.) Would you want to hire a meteorologist that minored in it? Im sure it happens...but I certainly wouldnt bank on it.

With all due respect to the quote above... its comments like that that make the flight school grads look like aholes in the industry. Like I mentioned I am a UND grad..and Im glad to say that I spent college flying airplanes...HOWEVER...once you get into the industry you will find great pilots come from all different backgrounds.

Yes you are getting a great education at UND...and you get to fly great equipment with usually great instructors. HOWEVER...a little modesty goes a long way in this industry. I suggest you refrain from ever making a comment like that again. Its just embarrassing. In fact I would probably avoid making suggestions like that until you are out into the industry and you see how things finally work.

Ive been to UND...I know what they tell you about the industry...its not exactly accurate kid.

The type may not be as big of deal as you think...I have seen several people in the past few months leave non type turboprop for MD-80s. I also know a few non typed turboprop pilots in the past few years that have left for DC-10s and 767s. No types. Thats just off the top of my head :)

I just cant resist this one. You are seriously one arrogant prick...and especially so for a guy as young and inexperienced as you are. Just a thought for ya...I have known several guys with your attitude towards other pilots and the industry. They all have gotten what was coming to them. You are the type of pilot that the rest of the industry hates to fly with.

BTW I know of a few captains at "the bigs" that got aviation degrees. They studied flight and "flew" all the way through college. It blows me away that you would talk to your fellow pilots like that. How insecure are you? I would suggest you take that degree and shov.....put it to use. I would hate to share a cockpit with you buddy.

(for the record I still dont think a degree in commercial aviation is the best choice...too many eggs in one basket if you know what I mean...just standing up for those of us who did though. :)

Irish Pilot,

I guess I see where you are coming from about the whole degree thing. I just dont know what to double major in, i guess i can pick up airport management. I am minoring in Russian, i know thats really not going to do much for me, but I just like the language. I have a question for you, so it does not matter if I went to Aviation school or some other school, people are still going to look at me the same way? Because i much rather be flying back home where there is sun all year round. For the most part I chose UND for it name in the industry and that they offered russian.

Edik

PS it says that you are in CA, where at in California you are at?

An aviation degree is as good as most others
 

The people who are saying an aviation degree is worthless are incorrect. I started college at the University of Oregon, studying non-aviation related subjects. I later transferred to ERAU and graduated with an aviation degree.
I can tell you first hand that the classes and professors at ERAU were so much better than at the U of O. The students studied harder and more often. The students attended their classes all the time, unlike at the public university where it was regular to have 150 students in a class and only 30 would show up, except for on test days.
The social scene at ERAU was poor, but the education was good.
I got out of aviation for a while after 9/11 and had no trouble finding a job with my degree. Most employers don't really care what degree you have unless it's required for certification ie. accounting, medical, education degrees. As long as you have a bachelors, you are okay. Work experience is what they really want to see.
Now if you are already studying at a non-aviation university, a bachelors from that will be just fine. It will probably save you a lot of money.
If an aviation degree is worthless, you can also say that a business degree is worthless because there are so many people out there that have them; they're a dime-a-dozen and employers could really care less if you have a degree in business admin.

121 CA stands for a 121 airline Captain :) If you go into your profile the option is actually called "Aircraft & Seat:" not "Location:" I didnt notice that until now lol and obviously neither have many others :)

I dont necessarily want to turn you away from UND. I absolutely had the time of my life there and would still reccommend it to anyone. You can major in many things other than Commercial Av (Av mngmnt etc.) or many things outside of flying and still take the flight classes. UND is a great school outside of flying and there are many great opportunities there. If you do think you are better suited at home so be it! Make sure to get a 4 year degree whatever you do...and yes minor in Russian! If its something you love its an excellent choice and being bilingual shows that you have the ability to learn and look at things in several dimensions.

I think flying is what you make of it...instructors will have great influence over your training yes...but the best students I had as an instructor were those who took it upon themselves to be better. I would tell them to study one chapter...they would re-read the previous 3 as well. Just work hard. I have had the pleasure working in a 121 environment with many pilots that trained at the local FBO and many were great pilots. You will find just as many good/bad pilots at a university as you would at an FBO...it depends far more on the person than the environment.

As far as ERAU I cannot comment. I have flown with many top notch pilots and people from Riddle as well as idiots. The reason I didnt go to Riddle was that I wanted a more well rounded education and UND has 12ooo students with 2ooo pilots as to ERAU being just a flight school. At und you will get to watch a Division 1 National Champion hockey team and a Division 2 basketball/football National Champion team among other things (the GREAT Greek system!).

The point is...being a good pilot is a LOT more than the school you go to. The great thing about flying is YOU have the responsibility of being a good pilot! If you want to go to a "flight school" ie University go for it and work hard while you are there! If you want to stay near home get a 4yr degree and work hard to fly on the side. Either (there are MANY more options obviously) of these two will get you to the same place. Certainly DO NOT feel that you have to go to a University to get connected to the industry. I will be honest however...you will graduate from a University most likely knowing many many other pilots that will spread themselves throughout the industry. This gives you great resources...I know pilots in just about every aspect of flying that I have kept in contact with and good friends have lined me up with just about EVERY flying job I have had so far.

Work hard, support your fellow pilots, and keep your eye on the big picture and you will be just fine in this industry-world. Its not a competition..we are all going for the same goal here.

I ended up recieving a B.S. in aeronautical science and a double minor in aviation safety and weather at ERAU. We had great professors from the military and from the airlines working there. One pro would be they keep the classes interesting and they are always there if you need a letter of rec. The training was excellent but you do get some runaround. Social life is what you make out of it. I know companies that use a point system when hiring and if you have an aviation degree or went to Riddle, Purdue, UND, and Auburn...etc you get another point. I know the training we recieved is a lot better than most of the FBOs i have been to....however, if you do your research their are flight schools that provide excellent training. Downfall as said before is I have loans out of the wazzu. Another pro is our alumni association and career center can help you get a pilot job way easier than if you just go to a small fbo flight school. About half the regionals out there will also offer an interview to you at 600hrs as opposed to 1000 if you come from UND or Riddle (the universities that i know of). Our universirty has strong ties for aviation/engineering related companies..boeing, raytheon, lockheed and NASA to name a few. I am not downing anyone elses training or education but this is just my experience. Just make a pro's and con's list and research the route that is better for you.

Hopeless
 

You pro aviation college guys hopeless. Point system? What a joke. You guys are so far gone that no one can save you. Just wait a few years till you are waiting tables and then you will understand what a waste your college years were. Oh, and lets not forget the $982 monthly student loan bill you will have, but I am sure that the bank won't let you forget about it.

SkyHigh

I found the answer to when an aircraft requires a SIC. It is located in 91.531. You were correct, weight does play a role. I would type the whole thing but I'm too lazy.. if interested look it up in the FAR's :)

You just lurk and attack dont you? What the hell do you care? If you dont have anything constructive to say just shut it. Your not helping by attacking peoples posts. We know your opinion...leave it be. The rest is just making you look like an a$$.

For the record...you can go to UND and major in ANYTHING and still take all the flight classes (get all your ratings etc.)

If I were to do it again I would not major in aviation. Though I think its kinda helpful to have in some ways (but too few to be of logical value)- It will not determine you getting a job as a pilot or not. I realize now how not very useful the degree is outside of aviation. ( I left flying (regional) for a real job & am much happier but had to go back to school as a result of my "aviation degree"). Though you may argue the point that most employers look for any degree to hire you (outside aviation), you cannot argue the point that a lot of the "good paying jobs" will not even look at you. (Remember you owe it to yourself to treat your life as an investor would a portfolio - what is risky, what is smart.)
When (or If - but mainly when) the day comes you decide you want out of this mess that is "Aviation" you will want to get a real job. Go sit down at an interview for an accounting firm and they will ask you - what else can you do besides fly airplanes?
I know a lot of you just getting into aviation don't see the day - but one day you will see that flying for a living is a job. Also, ask many older pilots in the industry, they will tell you how many of their friends are still flying for a living - not many.
And yes - s#$t happens and you can loose you medical I have seen it happen to people!

Diversify - you'll see there is so much out there besides "Flying" and being a "pilot"

Just strictly my personal thoughts about it.

...and Kiloalpha, how can you fly an airplane and not know the operating weights of it?

You scare me man, not to beat on you but, you just downright scare me....

You're a tool, we were not talking about the weight of my aircraft. We were discussing when an aircraft is required to have a SIC, and part of the requirements is based on weight (large aircraft).

My plane MTOW 10100. Ramp 10160. Landing 9700.

Also, in response to someone's post that SIC requirement has nothing to do with weight,
here is a FAR quote:

91.531: Second In Command Requirements
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate the following airplanes without a pilot who is designated as second in command of that airplane:
(1)A large airplane, except that a person may operate an airplane certificated under SFAR 41 without a pilot who is designated as second in command if that airplane is certificated for operation with one pilot.

Last time I checked an aircraft deemed "large" had some type of weight associated with it.. yep it does 12.5... so apparently, mr. smarty pants, weight is a factor!

Ok fine. I made an assumption- i read through the posts too quickly and kinda skipped around a bit. sorry man...
Can you blame me? How many retarded pilots do you encounter daily??

Thanx for the tool remark.

I am building my savings account before moving to a regional. I want to have $15,000 in the bank to supplement my income for the first couple years. Some people can live in a shack, eat noodle soup every day, and drive a beater, but not I. For this reason I am not moving on yet.

Also, I still flight instruct and fly my boss's Lancair, so I am getting over 200 hours per year total.