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Originally Posted by dontsurf
(Post 251331)
um...seriously, this is silly. should we talk to guys at united or any other alpa carriers and see if they are happy with their executives' compensation?
Great point. Executives are different than the leaders of a Union. |
Originally Posted by WAVIT Inbound
(Post 251346)
Great point. Executives are different than the leaders of a Union.
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Originally Posted by ghilis101
(Post 251009)
reel you are right, often times junior guys get completely screwed during concessions or when negotiating a new contract. but is it really the unions fault? i contend that this is not inherent to unions whatsoever. once again i will use the skywest pay example and what happened to the EMB-120 pilots last year. as the "narrowbody" guys (loosely correlating of course) in the company, they got sold down the river. And this was not the doing of a union.
When a union supports a TA or LOA or CBA that hurts the junior guys, its most likely because of who is in place on the executive committee and representing the union. Theyre more likely to be senior and could possibly be biased to themselves. But when times were good, everyone had it relatively good (except probationary year which has been bad almost everywhere) when it came to wages and work rules. Dont forget that you still have the power to vote. United successfully voted down in almost unanimous fashion their first crack at a lousy TA this past spring/summer even when their MEC said it would be good. Plus look at a place like continental. They are going to be extremely junior and totally "bottom-heavy." You think the senior guys are going to be able to run that place? Theyd have to convince all the guys with horrible QOL on the 737 to give in and believe me thats not going to happen. Youre going to see a lot of great changes for the narrow body guys there in their next contract. With a union you have a lot of power in choosing who represents you, and you should vote accordingly, and always vote. And if you dont like something you can run for a rep position. The important thing is to stay active, stay involved, and dont sit back and think oh the union will handle it. Sure they will do what they can, but its YOUR union (if you get one). only YOU and your fellow pilots can make it work. Its not easy for those guys to get everything you want, but its up to you to let them know whats really important to you, and if they arent working for you, you can change that. Pilots are extremely apathetic and love to b*tch about everything (I do it all the time but Im learning to channel that negativity toward something good haha). If we used that energy to strengthen our pilot group instead and come up with really great ideas to improve our industry think about how much farther we will be down the road. If you guys dont get a union thats your choice, but I would like to see you guys come together anyway and be a strong group |
Judging by the way ALPA is still showing up at airports and calling to see if you have received your stuff in the mail, I am going to guess it isn't going to well?
Does anyone know the truth? Or where the percentage actually is? |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 251446)
Well first off, it's funny you mention the United TA this summer, because I was a first hand witness to a very bitter convo between a 320 F/O and a 767/757 Capt about a week after that vote. It's actually a perfect example of how their management has succesfully pitted the senior vs. the junior. And myself being a SUPER junior pilot (relative to the entire industry) I find it difficult to find ways that ALPA fights for me. But I do hope your right, I hope that ALPA, if voted onto property at SkyWest, will create a truly unified group that does what's best for every pilot at SkyWest, whether it be the 18 year jet check airmen or the reserve FAT 120 F/O. Unfortunately for the last decade, this has not been the way things have panned out at ALPA. Either way, I'll be glad when the drive is over, my mailbox is getting full.
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 251446)
Well first off, it's funny you mention the United TA this summer, because I was a first hand witness to a very bitter convo between a 320 F/O and a 767/757 Capt about a week after that vote. It's actually a perfect example of how their management has succesfully pitted the senior vs. the junior. And myself being a SUPER junior pilot (relative to the entire industry) I find it difficult to find ways that ALPA fights for me. But I do hope your right, I hope that ALPA, if voted onto property at SkyWest, will create a truly unified group that does what's best for every pilot at SkyWest, whether it be the 18 year jet check airmen or the reserve FAT 120 F/O.
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Duane Woerth President $ 485,411 Prater said he wouldn't accept anything more than what he would make in his position at CAL. We'll have to check at the end of the year after they make disclosures. Either way, his election was a move in the right direction. |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 251470)
Your ALPA rep will be who you vote in, ie your fellow pilot You have the power to voice your concerns Dont think ALPA is going to come in and change this and that, that is not what ALPA, IN the end YOU are the ones who will command change and you have the Coffers of ALPA to support you.
So that's partly what I mean when I say that ALPA stands for only the most senior of pilots right now. They certainly haven't cared about the junior pilots at majors, evidenced by the now extreme number of RJ's, and I haven't seen ALPA national do all that much for RJ drivers either. If ALPA was truly a group that fights for every pilot every time, I believe that they wouldn't have any trouble being voted in at SkyWest.
Originally Posted by Thinking man
(Post 251525)
And, what was the pay raise for the EMB pilots? Seems like SkyWest management (and SAPA) are doing fine job dividing pilots...
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 251628)
No where in any post did I say SkyWest pilots were any more unified than any ALPA group. The Bro guys got skrewed, the only consolation is that it looks like the majority of our Bro's are being replaced with jets and it looks like (fingers crossed) that it won't result in any domicile closings.
Personally, that makes me sick. No offense. IMO, if our Bro brethren get nothing than we all should get nothing; but that's unity and SKW has none. Now that the RJ boys voted yes; the only thing our Bro brethren can look forward to is going to the RJ for decreased QOL or 4+ years of the same BS pay, low QOL with no COLA. I flew the Bro back in the day so I'm sympathetic to their cause, although that shouldn’t matter, but that’s just me showing unity. Boy it's a lonely place around here for us attemptimg to stick together. Just wish someone would get the knife out of my back. Just calling it like I see it. Yes, I voted Yes for ALPA for many legitimate reasons. But the pi$$ off pilot in me wants it to pass just so those who left the Bro boys out will have to pay 2%. That will be a 1% net loss after the BS pay increase we took last year. I’d pay 2% just to see their faces. You might say that's not showing unity? But that would be Hypocritical! I'm not saying you are one of "those SKW pilots," after all I don't know you. |
Originally Posted by Koolaidman
(Post 251466)
Judging by the way ALPA is still showing up at airports and calling to see if you have received your stuff in the mail, I am going to guess it isn't going to well? Does anyone know the truth? Or where the percentage actually is?
Perhaps the ALPA organizing comm. might suggest otherwise, but the reality is that should it pass, it'll be close. Very close. I can't imagine that anybody would be able to "see how the vote is going". I'm sure ALPA is hedging all their bets. It seems that there's not a billboard in the SLC airport that doesn't have an ALPA advertisement in it. I just got a brochure that had to cost at least $10 a pop to produce (times 3000 pilots). ALPA has a FULL time rep living in Salt Lake until the vote is final. They are spending MILLIONS for this vote. I predict something like 40% for, 60% against (or no vote). |
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 251804)
Perhaps the ALPA organizing comm. might suggest otherwise, but the reality is that should it pass, it'll be close. Very close.
I can't imagine that anybody would be able to "see how the vote is going". I'm sure ALPA is hedging all their bets. It seems that there's not a billboard in the SLC airport that doesn't have an ALPA advertisement in it. I just got a brochure that had to cost at least $10 a pop to produce (times 3000 pilots). ALPA has a FULL time rep living in Salt Lake until the vote is final. They are spending MILLIONS for this vote. I predict something like 40% for, 60% against (or no vote). |
When do we find out anyway? Although I love the free food I'm sick to death about hearing about the whole thing. Whether it passes or fails I'm just looking forward to getting on with a new Skywest or the old one.
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Nov 6 at noon I think.
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Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 251688)
That's good! Justice has been served now that our Bro brethren can transition to the RJ 2-4 years after that fact. Those transitioning will more than likely be Jr Bro pilots. That also being said, we are only parking 18 Bros with 40+ remaining on line in some form or fashion. Who knows when they will be parked but it’ll be years from now. So, will it be justice for them when they transition? 6+ years (from our Yes vote on the Pay proposal) working with no increase in pay, a decrease in QOL due to a/c parking and a lack of support from their RJ brethren; seeing they got theirs.
Personally, that makes me sick. No offense. IMO, if our Bro brethren get nothing than we all should get nothing; but that's unity and SKW has none. Now that the RJ boys voted yes; the only thing our Bro brethren can look forward to is going to the RJ for decreased QOL or 4+ years of the same BS pay, low QOL with no COLA. I flew the Bro back in the day so I'm sympathetic to their cause, although that shouldn’t matter, but that’s just me showing unity. Boy it's a lonely place around here for us attemptimg to stick together. Just wish someone would get the knife out of my back. Just calling it like I see it. Yes, I voted Yes for ALPA for many legitimate reasons. But the pi$$ off pilot in me wants it to pass just so those who left the Bro boys out will have to pay 2%. That will be a 1% net loss after the BS pay increase we took last year. I’d pay 2% just to see their faces. You might say that's not showing unity? But that would be Hypocritical! I'm not saying you are one of "those SKW pilots," after all I don't know you. And so you're voting for ALPA with the idea you'll take a 1% loss in pay? I thought ALPA was supposed to increase compensation. |
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 251688)
That's good! Justice has been served now that our Bro brethren can transition to the RJ 2-4 years after that fact. Those transitioning will more than likely be Jr Bro pilots. That also being said, we are only parking 18 Bros with 40+ remaining on line in some form or fashion. Who knows when they will be parked but it’ll be years from now. So, will it be justice for them when they transition? 6+ years (from our Yes vote on the Pay proposal) working with no increase in pay, a decrease in QOL due to a/c parking and a lack of support from their RJ brethren; seeing they got theirs.
Personally, that makes me sick. No offense. IMO, if our Bro brethren get nothing than we all should get nothing; but that's unity and SKW has none. Now that the RJ boys voted yes; the only thing our Bro brethren can look forward to is going to the RJ for decreased QOL or 4+ years of the same BS pay, low QOL with no COLA. I flew the Bro back in the day so I'm sympathetic to their cause, although that shouldn’t matter, but that’s just me showing unity. Boy it's a lonely place around here for us attemptimg to stick together. Just wish someone would get the knife out of my back. Just calling it like I see it. Yes, I voted Yes for ALPA for many legitimate reasons. But the pi$$ off pilot in me wants it to pass just so those who left the Bro boys out will have to pay 2%. That will be a 1% net loss after the BS pay increase we took last year. I’d pay 2% just to see their faces. You might say that's not showing unity? But that would be Hypocritical! I'm not saying you are one of "those SKW pilots," after all I don't know you. |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 252002)
hey now, I DID say they got skrewed, I just said that increasing the percentage of pilots on the jet means that more pilots get to fly on the RJ payscale, which is better for them, especially if it means no base closures.
And so you're voting for ALPA with the idea you'll take a 1% loss in pay? I thought ALPA was supposed to increase compensation. Also, your last statement is complete stupidity. To think that ALPA's going to increase compensation when voted in is asinine. What? You’re smarter than your posting right? You have to understand the negotiating process. No offense but did you educate yourself on ALPA before you made your decision. You should know better than this. Once again I’m assuming, I don’t know you. |
Poll
There's a poll running on the skywest sapa forums about the alpa vote. It has 300 responses so far and shows about a 60/40 split in favor of ALPA. Who knows how accurate if it is really representative of the whole pilot group though.
Here are the results as of today.
Originally Posted by sapaforums.org
Exit Poll
You may choose only one (301 total votes) I called and voted for ALPA 181 60% I called and "wrote-in" a candidate for representation 5 2% I called and voted NO 3 1% I will not call 112 37% |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 252003)
I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that the RJ would be lower QOL for Bro transitions. Assuming a commute?
Stop living in denial and open your eyes. You don’t have to vote for ALPA to do so. |
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 252089)
Once again I’m assuming, I don’t know you.
You're wrong! |
Originally Posted by weasil
(Post 252096)
There's a poll running on the skywest sapa forums about the alpa vote. It has 300 responses so far and shows about a 60/40 split in favor of ALPA. Who knows how accurate if it is really representative of the whole pilot group though.
Here are the results as of today. The sapa poll is probably meaningless...most of us never even look at those forums :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by weasil
(Post 252096)
There's a poll running on the skywest sapa forums about the alpa vote. It has 300 responses so far and shows about a 60/40 split in favor of ALPA. Who knows how accurate if it is really representative of the whole pilot group though. Here are the results as of today.
Originally Posted by sapaforums.org
Exit Poll You may choose only one (301 total votes) I called and voted for ALPA 181 60% I called and "wrote-in" a candidate for representation 5 2% I called and voted NO 3 1% I will not call 112 37% Publishing information like the above "Exit Poll Results" is another way of encouraging pilots to NOT vote. If a pilot is in favor of representation, but fears retribution for voting, he might view the above results and misinterpret them as meaning he doesn't need to vote, because enough people have already voted FOR representation. NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH! Every pilot needs to exercise his RIGHT to vote. Don't let The Company, or a puppet of The Company, fool you. Don't Delay VOTE TODAY! . |
Originally Posted by POPA
(Post 252102)
Know what happens when you assume?
You're wrong! But in my previous posting I based my assumption upon his wording and lack of comprehension, in which case I also said I don't know him. |
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 252089)
You kidding right? I hope that you're smarter than that but if you reread my posting I said that I voted for ALPA for many legitimate reasons, revenge not being one of them. But I shouldn't have to be repeating this.
Also, your last statement is complete stupidity. To think that ALPA's going to increase compensation when voted in is asinine. What? You’re smarter than your posting right? You have to understand the negotiating process. No offense but did you educate yourself on ALPA before you made your decision. You should know better than this. Once again I’m assuming, I don’t know you. |
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 252098)
By moving down the seniority list in domicile or pushed out of domicile and forced to commute, will seriously decrease QOL. Obviously our Bro Brethren didn't decide to stay on the Bro for pay. To think this won't happen is insane. This "I got mine" mentality by most RJ boys is one of the reasons unity is unobtainable here at SKW.
Stop living in denial and open your eyes. You don’t have to vote for ALPA to do so. |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 252155)
I just got an email from ALPA OC telling me that I should vote for them because ALPA at ASA has better pay for every seat every year. I do believe that one thing the OC has been running on is that they would get better pay, granted I don't believe them, but that's what they keep telling me.
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 252155)
I just got an email from ALPA OC telling me that I should vote for them because ALPA at ASA has better pay for every seat every year. I do believe that one thing the OC has been running on is that they would get better pay, granted I don't believe them, but that's what they keep telling me.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 252109)
My gut feeling from talking to a whole lot of people is that it's going to be a near thing...somewhere between 40%-55% in favor.
The sapa poll is probably meaningless...most of us never even look at those forums :rolleyes: This thread (and poll) on the SAPA forum was started and frequented by openly pro-ALPA folks. But, obviously, it it mere entertainment. I concur with your percentage (range) of voting. |
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 252111)
The Company wants pilots to NOT vote, because a no vote is a NO vote. They've already instructed pilots to shred their voting credentials as soon as they receive them so that they don't accidentally vote.
Yes, the company has sent out instructions that clearly state the NMB rules. Not voting is the same as a no vote. To my knowledge, no such direction has been sent to "shred the voting credentials" Perhaps poetic license on your behalf. Publishing information like the above "Exit Poll Results" is another way of encouraging pilots to NOT vote. If a pilot is in favor of representation, but fears retribution for voting, he might view the above results and misinterpret them as meaning he doesn't need to vote, because enough people have already voted FOR representation. Neither the company, nor the current pilot association, put that "exit poll" up. Every pilot needs to exercise his RIGHT to vote. Don't let The Company, or a puppet of The Company, fool Every pilot has that RIGHT to vote. Don't worry, ALPA isn't taking any chances with the millions of dollars they are spending to get our votes. I received many, many mailings and emails from ALPA, naturally all encouraging me to vote. Far and above disproportionate to the company's actions to nofity pilots of their rights concerning voting. I'm guessing I'm one of the puppets of the company, since I have not, nor do I intend, to vote for ALPA. Many of our pilots who have come from other ALPA carriers have openly expressed that they will not vote for ALPA. Major carriers are trying to get rid of ALPA. ALPA has failed at SkyWest (and Colgan) in the past, and another union effort also has failed at SkyWest. Even if they win, it'll be close, but I don't think ALPA cares much about that. They'll take money from all of us anyway, even if only 50% plus one vote it in. |
"To my knowledge, no such direction has been sent to "shred the voting credentials" Perhaps poetic license on your behalf."
I may be mistaken but I think someone posted a letter or email from management asking people to shred their voting materials. |
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 252193)
I didn't vote yes based upon pay. There are much more important issues out there than a buck here or there. It's just unfortunate that that's what most “only” care about. Will we get a pay raise after a lengthy negotiation with Mgmnt? More than likely, but there are more pressing issues, issues that no one seems to care about until it's too late. I have car, health, life, dental, vision, home owners, lose of license, and short tern disability insurance. We can never cover ourselves to much. After all, our livelihood and our career’s are way to fragile to take an uninsured chance on.
Anyway I don't know why you thought I was one of "those" skywest pilots, I'm the first guy to say the Bro guys got skrewed, I was just saying a SMALL consolation was it appears that EVENTUALLY we'll all be RJ drivers. |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 252221)
I completely agree, if ALPA comes on property the most important things they'll bring have little to do with pay. For me personally, I'd like to see 3rd party protection should the FAA or company come after me. Also on a smaller level, some things I would hope for in the contract, 14 hour max duty days, and 10 hour min rest in domicile. I live a quite a distance from ORD, and I've been reduced in domicile 3 times in the last year, and I either have to call in fatigued or find a hotel out of my own pocket, that's not right, but I digress.
Anyway I don't know why you thought I was one of "those" skywest pilots, I'm the first guy to say the Bro guys got skrewed, I was just saying a SMALL consolation was it appears that EVENTUALLY we'll all be RJ drivers. |
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252204)
To my knowledge, no such direction has been sent to "shred the voting credentials" Perhaps poetic license on your behalf. Since you don't recall the conversation we had about that very topic last month, I'll include here a link to and some excerpts from that conversation (September 22-23, 2007): SkyWest ALPA Vote Scheduled, Letter from Mgmnt
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 234885)
To: SkyWest Airlines Pilots From: Brad Holt Date: September 21, 2007 ... NMB VOTING PROCEDURES Q&A Q. How do I vote against ALPA? A. By not voting (not calling) at all. There is no prompt to vote NO if you call the voting number. There are only prompts if you want to vote for ALPA or “write-in” someone else. To vote NO, don’t call the number at all! In fact, to eliminate any chance of someone else casting your vote (which would be against the law), shred your instructions and VIN and PIN when you get them.
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 235093)
Originally Posted by JetJock16
(Post 234885)
... shred your instructions and VIN and PIN when you get them.
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 235295)
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 235093)
Why would management encourage a pilot to destroy his ability to vote?
Not poetic license, nonetheless poetic.
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252204)
I'm guessing I'm one of the puppets of the company, since I have not, nor do I intend, to vote for ALPA. I didn't consider you to be a puppet of The Company -- I was referring to a particular organization. But, if you're feeling the strings of The Company tugging at your arms, it might fit. OK, I might sound like I'm getting a little personal, but I take great offense with your insinuation that I had taken license with the truth. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? . |
tracking the posts and opinions of Tony W i would definitely consider him to be a puppet of the company. one of those guys that thinks everything is absolutely top notch and the greatest thing since apple pie from within. ignorance is bliss and one man's trash is another man's treasure i suppose.
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Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 252249)
Not poetic license, nonetheless poetic.
Again, they didn't say "shred the ballots", correct? (therefore poetic license. Just a nit, no big deal to me.) Ok, I see that in there now... I assumed that by using the metaphor "puppet" ..... the definition should suffice to covey the meaning: one whose acts are controlled by an outside force or influence. I didn't consider you to be a puppet of The Company -- I was referring to a particular organization. SAPA, perhaps, is that organization? If I'm a SAPA rep, am I now an official puppet? OK, I might sound like I'm getting a little personal, but I take great offense with your insinuation that I had taken license with the truth. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?. |
Originally Posted by mccube5
(Post 252254)
tracking the posts and opinions of Tony W i would definitely consider him to be a puppet of the company. one of those guys that thinks everything is absolutely top notch and the greatest thing since apple pie from within. ignorance is bliss and one man's trash is another man's treasure i suppose.
I wouldn't knowingly jump into a company that was "trash". I do consider SkyWest to be in the top tier or regionals. Sorry if that offends your senses. Don't forget "head in the sand", "crack some skulls", "banned off jumpseats", "can't get a job at other carriers", and all the other absolute idiotic scare tactic employed by those in support of ALPA. Certainly, your "top notch" statement is hyperbole. There's plenty of things to fix, and there always will be, whether it's ALPA, SAPA, or any other alphabet soup group representing the pilots. |
yes i do think your participation in the atrocity that is the SAPA makes you a puppet. how could you knowingly support something that accomplishes nothing of real value.
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Originally Posted by mccube5
(Post 252266)
yes i do think your participation in the atrocity that is the SAPA makes you a puppet. how could you knowingly support something that accomplishes nothing of real value.
Now that I'm a puppet, in that "atrocity", what can I possibly offer you in explanation? Clearly, I'm an evil man. Whatch out pilots, I"M GUNNA GET YA !!!! Edit: Ok, this exchange would be fun to continue, but now I actually have to make sure my house doesn't burn down. |
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252268)
Clearly, I'm an evil man. Whatch out pilots, I"M GUNNA GET YA !!!!
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Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252256)
I clearly remember the conversation. Again, they didn't say "shred the ballots", correct? (therefore poetic license. Just a nit, no big deal to me.) Ok, I see that in there now... Either you didn't comprehend what you were discussing then, or you don't comprehend what you're discussing now, or you're taking license with what I've said, or a combination of the above. I said "shred their voting credentials":
Originally Posted by TonyC
(Post 252111)
The Company wants pilots to NOT vote, because a no vote is a NO vote. They've already instructed pilots to shred their voting credentials as soon as they receive them so that they don't accidentally vote.
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252204)
To my knowledge, no such direction has been sent to "shred the voting credentials" Perhaps poetic license on your behalf. Poetic license: noun. The liberty taken by an artist or a writer in deviating from conventional form or fact to achieve a desired effect. Now, what liberty do you accuse me of taking? What distortion did I commit? What deviation from fact did I exercise? What exaggeration do you detect?Poetic license: Distortions of fact and literary convention made by a writer—not always a poet—for the sake of the effect gained. Poetic license is closely related to the concept of "artistic freedom". An author exercises poetic license by saying that a pile of money "reaches as high as a mountain" when the pile is actually only a foot or two high. NONE. I quoted Brad Holt who said, "shred your instructions and VIN and PIN when you get them." The only possible objection you might have would be to my substitution of the word "credentials" for "instructions and VIN and PIN." In order to cast a vote electronically (more specifically, telephonically), one must have the instructions (which include the phone number to call and the steps to follow to register a vote), a Voter Identification Number (VIN), and a Personal Identification Number (PIN). These are the credentials required to vote. Without these credentials, the pilot cannot vote, and that inaction is counted as a NO vote. Once again, the "instructions and VIN and PIN" are the credentials. Your latest change to "shred the ballot" indicates either your ignorance of the process, since there is no ballot to shred, or your unwillingness to admit that you were wrong to accuse me of taking liberty with the truth. Your little switcheroo is, though, a classic case of poetic license. Change the facts to gain a desired effect. Ooops, we noticed.
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 252256)
SAPA, perhaps, is that organization? If I'm a SAPA rep, am I now an official puppet? . |
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 113242)
I've been in a union for the better part of two decades, so I'm familiar with that in general. Not very familiar with ALPA. I really want to work in an enviroment that doesn't have the never ending head butting contests.
Where exactly is this BBQ? I presume not on Skywest property !
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
(Post 105548)
I hope to be in the Feb 12 class... just interviewed on Thurday, Jan 18.
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