rickair7777

People,

I just heard (from a guy who was there) about a recent very near midair between an 121 pax airliner and a large 121 cargo plane (one of the big two). The story was very disturbing...

Center made an error assigning cargo an altitude, and both aircraft ended up head-to-head at cruise speed in the flight levels.

Center's computer alerter went off at the same time as the RA's...not much time here, about 1000 knots closure, like top gun. Center starts screaming (very agitated since the seperation violation has already occured) that he told cargo a different altitude and to climb immediately....

Pax gets a climb RA, cargo gets a descend RA...good so far, but the controller's insistent screaming somehow convinces cargo to ignore the RA and climb instead

The aircraft came with a couple hundred feet and pax saved the day by executing a hard banked turn (in the 300 flight levels).

It was determined that the controller assigned cargo the wrong altitude, but cargo still should have followed the RA. I find this pretty distrurbing because a professional flight crew at one of the worlds top aviation employers disregarded an RA in extremis.

This is almost the exact same scenario that brought down that Russian airliner (and a DHL heavy) over germany a few years back. Please remember these two events next time you get an RA...I sure will.

HercDriver130

thanks for posting rick.

ExperimentalAB

That's no joke. Came head-to-head with another 121 RJ the other day...we were the 1000 ft separation, but that sure scared the pants off me. No traffic call from Center either.

Even at the 1000 ft separation I thought we were goners - at that altitude, your eyes can deceive - and at 1000 kts closure I had 1 second after I saw them and they were right on top of us...

Airsupport

1000ft seperation is standard for rvsm operations. i usually see them on tcas before center even mentions them.

as far as ra's go, you ALWAYS FOLLOW THE RA!!! dont try and invent your own escape route when you are being told one. now of course if you see the other guy, and he is still coming at you, you have to do what you have to do. here is some guidance from the training material for tcas II version 7

Pilot Responsibilities

In general terms, the following procedures
and practices have been developed regarding
the pilots responsibilities and actions while
using TCAS. These procedures and practices
have been extracted from AC 20-155.
Respond to TAs by attempting to establish
visual contact with the intruder aircraft and
other aircraft that may be in the vicinity.
Coordinate to the degree possible with other
crewmembers to assist in searching for
traffic. Do not deviate from an assigned
clearance based only on TA information.
For any traffic that is acquired visually,
continue to maintain or attain safe separation
in accordance with current Federal Aviation
Regulations (FAR) and good operating
practices.
When an RA occurs, the pilot flying should
respond immediately by direct attention to
RA displays and maneuver as indicated
unless doing so would jeopardize the safe
operation of the flight or unless in the
approach environment the flight crew can
assure separation with the help of definitive
visual acquisition of the aircraft causing the
RA. By not responding to an RA, the
flightcrew effectively takes responsibility
for achieving safe separation.
Satisfy RAs by disconnecting the autopilot,
using prompt, positive control inputs in the
direction and with the magnitude TCAS
advises. To achieve the required vertical rate
(normally 1,500 fpm climb or descent), first

adjust the aircraft.s pitch.

Then refer to the vertical speed indicator and
make necessary pitch adjustments to place
the vertical speed indicator in the green arc
of the RA display. On aircraft with pitch
guidance TCAS RA displays, follow the RA
pitch command for initial, increase, and
weakening RAs.
Excursions from assigned altitude, when
responding to an RA, typically should be no
more than 300 to 500 feet to satisfy the
conflict. Vertical speed responses should be
made to avoid red arcs or outlined pitch
avoidance areas, and, if applicable, to
accurately fly to the green arc or outlined
pitch guidance area.
Respond immediately to any increase or
reversal RA maneuver advisories. Initial
vertical speed response to an increase or
reversal RA is expected by TCAS, using
1/3 g acceleration, within 2-1/2 seconds
after issuance of the advisory. Again, avoid
red arcs or outlined pitch avoidance areas
and fly to the green arc or outlined pitch
guidance area.
If an initial corrective RA is downgraded or
weakened (for example, a Climb RA
downgrades to a Do Not Descend RA),
pilots should respond to the weakening RA
and adjust the aircraft’s vertical speed
accordingly but still keep the needle or pitch
guidance symbol out of the red arc or
outlined pitch avoidance area. Pilots are
reminded that attention to the RA display
and prompt reaction to the weakened RA
will minimize altitude excursions and

potential disruptions to ATC.

saab2000

Follow the RA.

This happened over Germany under Swiss control. I lived there at the time and it was a big topic of discussion.

The controllers are human and subject to emotion and stress, etc. The computer is not.

Follow the RA.

Glad it ended up OK.

TheProfessionalPilot

I had one over Cuban Airspace, no traffic call. We are air ambulance so we are allowed into RVSM even though our aircraft are not... the problem then comes when you are transitioning to another country, US RVSM practices (which seperate non-rvsm a/c with 2000 vertically) are not applied to our aircraft any longer. Our altimeters are spotty at best between FL350-FL450 and we can see a split right up to the max non-rvsm difference.

Then you have to choose which indication you want to trust - we chose the wrong one (apparently) at FL410, climbing to FL430 while converging with a Continental 737 that was northbound back to US Airspace. They were level at FL400 and I swear to you I could read the name tags!!! We were at best 400 feet vertically seperated, so always use vigilance especially when abroad and even still when in the US.

COTriple7

Strangely enough, the controller in the Bashkirian/DHL midair was stabbed to death by a Russian man who lost his wife and two kids in the crash. Follow the RA, everyone lives...humans make mistakes...RA's don't.

N6724G

Ok, more than airline pilots read these forums. What is an RA

saab2000

I am aware of this. This whole thing happened about 25 km from where I used to live.

Very sad for all involved.

COTriple7

This is a simplified definition but a resolution advisory (RA) is the instructions a TCAS will give in order to prevent an imminent midair collision.